|
|
Post by Hey Man on Oct 16, 2023 11:37:31 GMT -5
Some fascinating shit, my man. Living through the scene back then is super interesting! Absolutely! It's fun to look back on. Some of the people made it ok, others didn't. It was a great time, with lots of highs and lows. Were you able to see that hair metal was dying or because it was LA, they were behind the sea change in music about to happen and there were still hair bands trying to get off the ground playing those LA clubs like the Decline Metal Years doc? |
|
|
|
Post by Mr. Blackwell on Oct 16, 2023 21:32:21 GMT -5
The downfall of hair metal was much more gradual than people remember. It had run its course and most knew a change was coming. It's just that no one knew until Nirvana what the change would be.
The first indicator was the rise of Metallica, who pre Black Album were the antithesis of hair metal. Summer of '88 Metallica played before Dokken on the Monsters of Rock tour. In hindsight that should have been the other way around.
I noticed it myself April '90 when I saw Whitesnake w/Vai, with Bad English opening. That should have been the show of a lifetime for me, but I left underwhelmed. Even Ozzy hiring Zakk Wylde, a Skynyrd-On-Steroids bluesy, pentatonic player over the literal sea of speed-picking, arpeggio-sweeping shredders was also an indicator.
I spent the first part of '90 in Philly, the summer in Houston, and the last part of the year in LA. I noticed things in each city that tipped me off that change was coming.
For instance, the hair metal scene in Houston was thriving. Literally dozens of hair bands with the look and licks, with enormous followings, packing clubs, etc. But none of them could get a sniff with major labels.
Yet King's X, who never pounded the pavement in the local rock scene, had a deal with Megaforce/Atlantic. Their proteges, Galactic Cowboys, who also never slugged it out in the clubs, landed an even better deal with Geffen (DGC), signed by the same guy who signed Nirvana, Gary Gersh.
Bands were posting flyers, teasing their hair, shredding on guitar, and the labels ignored them. I knew something was up.
Then I got to LA and heard a familiar tune on the radio, Find Another Way To Your Heart, by Heavens Edge, from Philly. And I heard it on the major rock station, KLOS, not KNAC. That song should've made them stars, and they were getting prime time airplay in the most important market. But Columbia refused to support them, finance a video, etc.
So I sensed change was coming.
|
|
|
|
Post by Hey Man on Oct 16, 2023 22:55:36 GMT -5
The downfall of hair metal was much more gradual than people remember. It had run its course and most knew a change was coming. It's just that no one knew until Nirvana what the change would be. The first indicator was the rise of Metallica, who pre Black Album were the antithesis of hair metal. Summer of '88 Metallica played before Dokken on the Monsters of Rock tour. In hindsight that should have been the other way around. I noticed it myself April '90 when I saw Whitesnake w/Vai, with Bad English opening. That should have been the show of a lifetime for me, but I left underwhelmed. Even Ozzy hiring Zakk Wylde, a Skynyrd-On-Steroids bluesy, pentatonic player over the literal sea of speed-picking, arpeggio-sweeping shredders was also an indicator. I spent the first part of '90 in Philly, the summer in Houston, and the last part of the year in LA. I noticed things in each city that tipped me off that change was coming. For instance, the hair metal scene in Houston was thriving. Literally dozens of hair bands with the look and licks, with enormous followings, packing clubs, etc. But none of them could get a sniff with major labels. Yet King's X, who never pounded the pavement in the local rock scene, had a deal with Megaforce/Atlantic. Their proteges, Galactic Cowboys, who also never slugged it out in the clubs, landed an even better deal with Geffen (DGC), signed by the same guy who signed Nirvana, Gary Gersh. Bands were posting flyers, teasing their hair, shredding on guitar, and the labels ignored them. I knew something was up. Then I got to LA and heard a familiar tune on the radio, Find Another Way To Your Heart, by Heavens Edge, from Philly. And I heard it on the major rock station, KLOS, not KNAC. That song should've made them stars, and they were getting prime time airplay in the most important market. But Columbia refused to support them, finance a video, etc. So I sensed change was coming. Funny you mention Whitesnake. Even as a die hard WS fan and excited initially that Vai was joining the band, I was left underwhelmed both by the album he was on and the live performance. I saw KISS open for Whitesnake and while I was certainly more of a WS fan over KISS at this time in 1990, KISS put on a better show. I remember you hating all the Vai guitar effects he used. Winger made it sound more drastic, but they were probably being hyperbolic - with one day playing to big crowds and the next day the crowds were gone. Of course Winger had their own additional problems with the whole Metallica thing. I recall Heaven's Edge saying that there was a delay with their album. Like it should have come out a year earlier or something when it would make an impact, but it came out too late. They went with the wrong label essentially - when apparently there were many labels that wanted to sign them. Wylde wasn't that different from Jake E. Lee, who he himself left Ozzy to start a blues based hard rock band with Badlands. It is interesting though that many of the bands that were involved in the sea change have been forgotten - while hair metal had a resurgence with many bands releasing new albums, you had Frontiers Records signing a ton of bands among other labels and basically kids of the 80's wanted to relive their past again going to hair metal festivals and stadium package tours. |
|
|
|
Post by Margo Leadbetter on Oct 17, 2023 23:43:48 GMT -5
Stop fucking quoting the messages, just REPLY like a normal conversation for god’s sake. Honestly, I’ve been using message forums for almost thirty years and it’s only KISSFAQ people who have this totally bizarre habit of quoting every previous fucking message, it’s insane.
|
|
|
|
Post by Joma on Oct 17, 2023 23:52:16 GMT -5
Stop fucking quoting the messages, just REPLY like a normal conversation for god’s sake. Honestly, I’ve been using message forums for almost thirty years and it’s only KISSFAQ people who have this totally bizarre habit of quoting every previous fucking message, it’s insane. But it notifies the person your responding to...although, to be fair, there's only so many posts being replied to at this point anyhow...BUT, when there's traffic, the person you're replying to is notified you are replying to them. |
|
|
|
Post by Margo Leadbetter on Oct 18, 2023 7:51:50 GMT -5
I haven’t quoted you in this. Will you ever see it? Of course.
|
|
|
|
Post by Hey Man on Oct 18, 2023 7:59:26 GMT -5
Stop fucking quoting the messages, just REPLY like a normal conversation for god’s sake. Honestly, I’ve been using message forums for almost thirty years and it’s only KISSFAQ people who have this totally bizarre habit of quoting every previous fucking message, it’s insane. Ya, it is out of habit for as long as I used forums. And yes, it is also to notify the person. I promise not to quote you when you make posts on here like you did on the FAQ. |
|
|
|
Post by Mr. Blackwell on Oct 18, 2023 12:40:08 GMT -5
The downfall of hair metal was much more gradual than people remember. It had run its course and most knew a change was coming. It's just that no one knew until Nirvana what the change would be. The first indicator was the rise of Metallica, who pre Black Album were the antithesis of hair metal. Summer of '88 Metallica played before Dokken on the Monsters of Rock tour. In hindsight that should have been the other way around. I noticed it myself April '90 when I saw Whitesnake w/Vai, with Bad English opening. That should have been the show of a lifetime for me, but I left underwhelmed. Even Ozzy hiring Zakk Wylde, a Skynyrd-On-Steroids bluesy, pentatonic player over the literal sea of speed-picking, arpeggio-sweeping shredders was also an indicator. I spent the first part of '90 in Philly, the summer in Houston, and the last part of the year in LA. I noticed things in each city that tipped me off that change was coming. For instance, the hair metal scene in Houston was thriving. Literally dozens of hair bands with the look and licks, with enormous followings, packing clubs, etc. But none of them could get a sniff with major labels. Yet King's X, who never pounded the pavement in the local rock scene, had a deal with Megaforce/Atlantic. Their proteges, Galactic Cowboys, who also never slugged it out in the clubs, landed an even better deal with Geffen (DGC), signed by the same guy who signed Nirvana, Gary Gersh. Bands were posting flyers, teasing their hair, shredding on guitar, and the labels ignored them. I knew something was up. Then I got to LA and heard a familiar tune on the radio, Find Another Way To Your Heart, by Heavens Edge, from Philly. And I heard it on the major rock station, KLOS, not KNAC. That song should've made them stars, and they were getting prime time airplay in the most important market. But Columbia refused to support them, finance a video, etc. So I sensed change was coming. Funny you mention Whitesnake. Even as a die hard WS fan and excited initially that Vai was joining the band, I was left underwhelmed both by the album he was on and the live performance. I saw KISS open for Whitesnake and while I was certainly more of a WS fan over KISS at this time in 1990, KISS put on a better show. I remember you hating all the Vai guitar effects he used. Winger made it sound more drastic, but they were probably being hyperbolic - with one day playing to big crowds and the next day the crowds were gone. Of course Winger had their own additional problems with the whole Metallica thing. I recall Heaven's Edge saying that there was a delay with their album. Like it should have come out a year earlier or something when it would make an impact, but it came out too late. They went with the wrong label essentially - when apparently there were many labels that wanted to sign them. Wylde wasn't that different from Jake E. Lee, who he himself left Ozzy to start a blues based hard rock band with Badlands. It is interesting though that many of the bands that were involved in the sea change have been forgotten - while hair metal had a resurgence with many bands releasing new albums, you had Frontiers Records signing a ton of bands among other labels and basically kids of the 80's wanted to relive their past again going to hair metal festivals and stadium package tours. While awaiting the release of their debut, the bass player for Heavens Edge was shot outside a club in Philly. According to them, they delayed the release so he could heal. They believe that pushed them closer to the Nirvana window. Gene's quote that "You don't play guitar with your mind, you play with your dick," is actually spot-on. Vai is great, no doubt, but his cerebral approach to playing brought a nerdiness to Whitesnake. I dug the 90's music at the time, but from a purely musical standpoint, it was fairly simple. So it doesn't resonate to me as much thirty years later. Conversely, hair metal, which was dismissed at the time, actually had quite a bit of solid musicianship; so it stands up over time better, at least to my ears. |
|
|
|
Post by Hey Man on Oct 18, 2023 19:31:53 GMT -5
Funny you mention Whitesnake. Even as a die hard WS fan and excited initially that Vai was joining the band, I was left underwhelmed both by the album he was on and the live performance. I saw KISS open for Whitesnake and while I was certainly more of a WS fan over KISS at this time in 1990, KISS put on a better show. I remember you hating all the Vai guitar effects he used. Winger made it sound more drastic, but they were probably being hyperbolic - with one day playing to big crowds and the next day the crowds were gone. Of course Winger had their own additional problems with the whole Metallica thing. I recall Heaven's Edge saying that there was a delay with their album. Like it should have come out a year earlier or something when it would make an impact, but it came out too late. They went with the wrong label essentially - when apparently there were many labels that wanted to sign them. Wylde wasn't that different from Jake E. Lee, who he himself left Ozzy to start a blues based hard rock band with Badlands. It is interesting though that many of the bands that were involved in the sea change have been forgotten - while hair metal had a resurgence with many bands releasing new albums, you had Frontiers Records signing a ton of bands among other labels and basically kids of the 80's wanted to relive their past again going to hair metal festivals and stadium package tours. While awaiting the release of their debut, the bass player for Heavens Edge was shot outside a club in Philly. According to them, they delayed the release so he could heal. They believe that pushed them closer to the Nirvana window. Gene's quote that "You don't play guitar with your mind, you play with your dick," is actually spot-on. Vai is great, no doubt, but his cerebral approach to playing brought a nerdiness to Whitesnake. I dug the 90's music at the time, but from a purely musical standpoint, it was fairly simple. So it doesn't resonate to me as much thirty years later. Conversely, hair metal, which was dismissed at the time, actually had quite a bit of solid musicianship; so it stands up over time better, at least to my ears. I didn't think Heaven's Edge was that good. A couple of good songs, but I wouldn't say they would have been huge if only the album came out a year or two before. Do you dig it? |
|
|
|
Post by Mr. Blackwell on Oct 18, 2023 22:12:16 GMT -5
My answer today is yes, I dig the Heavens Edge debut. I prefer it to albums released in the last 20 years/hair metal renaissance, in that it sounds authentic (mainly because it is!).
At the time, I was ready to change the station for a bit, as I once heard Warren DeMartini eloquently put it. It was a bit formulaic, and they didn't quite have the image/star quality.
You know me, I'm into dancing, aerobics, etc. so I applaud them working out all the choreography in the Skin to Skin video. But it's actually a fairly heavy song, and seems out of place.
I love power ballads and that is the one area I think could've benefited Heavens Edge had they got to the party a tad earlier. Find Another Way is an excellent power ballad and could've gotten them on the level of say Kix, as I hear Don't Close Your Eyes on classic rock radio.
If Columbia gave them even a little support it still could've happened. Look at More Than Words and To Be With You.
|
|
|
|
Post by Hey Man on Oct 18, 2023 22:39:33 GMT -5
Musically they may have been very talented, but I just didn't think the songs were there. I did like Skin To Skin though.
Did you know they had a new album?
|
|
|
|
Post by Mr. Blackwell on Oct 18, 2023 23:08:25 GMT -5
Yes, I heard that when it came out. Good on them being true to themselves at this stage of their lives, but I would've never guessed it was Heavens Edge. Not only does it sound nothing like them, it's so generic.
With the benefit of hindsight, I think there was some great music lumped in the hair metal genre from the late 80's/early 90's that never got a fair shake. Extreme and Mr. Big managed late power ballad hits, and could've been the next phase, and the big bands of the 90's.
The Blue Murder debut is excellent, and I finally checked out the second album, which is also solid.
Then you had groups like Roxette, who walked the fine line between pop and rock. Like Mr. Big, they were managed by Herbie Herbert, who could've done even bigger things with them.
So in hindsight, while I embraced grunge/alternative at the time, I see it as a sea change that guitar-driven rock never recovered from. Of course you can also make the point that it ran its course; but the labels could've played the long game with some of the acts.
|
|
|
|
Post by Hey Man on Oct 18, 2023 23:26:48 GMT -5
It was interesting that certain labels were still signing hair metal bands into the 90's, but other labels were dropping the ones they had for what they saw as a dead music genre now.
Absolutely though that some bands got lumped in with hair metal, but offered much more than that. Saigon Kick is a good example.
Mr. Big were lucky that Japan loved them so much to sustain them and Extreme just released a real strong album.
I am actually curious on your take with this. Everyone was praising the solo a while back as mind blowing. I suspect you will have some commentary here.
|
|
|
|
Post by drmoorejr on Dec 22, 2023 10:37:42 GMT -5
Thanks so much, and nice to meet you Joma! I've been MIA from the boards for many years, as I drifted away from rock music. I still listen to it, but it started to feel redundant. That was actually the inspiration for the above tune - using "stock" devices but making them my own. I've recorded several tracks in recent years, but most closer to pop/dance, with some nods to smooth jazz. Hey Man said to me years ago he wanted to hear me rockin' out, so I sent him this song. I also took up jumping rope, which became kind of an obsession. Here's a YouTube Short more in line with what I do currently. The chords are borrowed from Just The Two of Us by Grover Washington Jr., and there's a solo at the end. Thanks again and cool to be back!
WOW great rhythm!
|
|
|
|
Post by Mr. Blackwell on Dec 22, 2023 14:40:20 GMT -5
Thanks so much, and nice to meet you Joma! I've been MIA from the boards for many years, as I drifted away from rock music. I still listen to it, but it started to feel redundant. That was actually the inspiration for the above tune - using "stock" devices but making them my own. I've recorded several tracks in recent years, but most closer to pop/dance, with some nods to smooth jazz. Hey Man said to me years ago he wanted to hear me rockin' out, so I sent him this song. I also took up jumping rope, which became kind of an obsession. Here's a YouTube Short more in line with what I do currently. The chords are borrowed from Just The Two of Us by Grover Washington Jr., and there's a solo at the end. Thanks again and cool to be back! WOW great rhythm!
Thanks! That rhythm was the inspired by The Brand New Heavies' track Dream Come True, but with a different drum loop. |
|
