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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 13:16:11 GMT -5
I have no issue naming all the drummers I love or guitarists and so forth. I can list every one of them, easily. I just have a hard time determining which ones I like more or less and putting them in an order of preference. Some are apples and oranges so it's hard to compare and say "I like this guy better than this guy" because some of them are incomparable. All these drummers have a variation of proficiency combined with style/feel/power - just what degree and variations is the question so I have a hard time ranking them. I love them all relatively equally, for varying reasons. I understand. In terms of KISS though, do you prefer Peter or Eric Singer? That's a tough question, in the end. In terms of which drummer I love listening to the most - I go by what I call the "Starr-Factor". What does that mean? It means that a drummer has to be able to make me move and feel. I have to want to start tapping along on my desk or steering wheel and I have to be wowed by the creativity and effectiveness of the drumming, like Ringo or Cozy Powell happens to do, easily. The solo in the song "The End" is so basic it's ridiculous - yet it's so infectiously effective and moves me as a listener. With Eric Singer - he's a truly proficient drummer, often creative yet usually straightforward and talented. A great drummer for those reasons, alone. He has some feel, for sure. With Peter Criss - he's average in his talent/proficiency yet in his style, feel and power, as well as his creativity - he is amazingly exceptional and this makes him a truly great drummer. And if I'm being honest with myself - Peter Criss' drum parts move me much more. They're more memorable, have more power and style behind them and they truly make me want to stomp and tap along to the music. His drumming has attitude, swagger or whatever you want to call it with the right amount of proficiency to carry all of it forward. Eric Singer, while he has moments of feel/attitude isn't consistent with moving me as a listener. As great as his stuff is, it's sometimes just "there" or and rarely makes me go "Yeah! Rock and roll!". His playing is exceptionally proficient and impeccably done and that sure can rock. However, I'd say he often lacks in feel, style and attitude. He has it here and there but it's really dependent on the song. I want to say Singer just because I know technically he is a better drummer - but I have to go with Criss. What he brought creatively and stylistically hasn't been outdone by anyone that came after him in KISS. Just the right amount of technical ability mixed in with the "it" factor that can make me move/feel with his attitude, style and such. |
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 4, 2015 13:20:48 GMT -5
I understand. In terms of KISS though, do you prefer Peter or Eric Singer? That's a tough question, in the end. In terms of which drummer I love listening to the most - I go by what I call the "Starr-Factor". What does that mean? It means that a drummer has to be able to make me move and feel. I have to want to start tapping along on my desk or steering wheel and I have to be wowed by the creativity and effectiveness of the drumming, like Ringo or Cozy Powell happens to do, easily. The solo in the song "The End" is so basic it's ridiculous - yet it's so infectiously effective and moves me as a listener. With Eric Singer - he's a truly proficient drummer, often creative yet usually straightforward and talented. A great drummer for those reasons, alone. He has some feel, for sure. With Peter Criss - he's average in his talent/proficiency yet in his style, feel and power, as well as his creativity - he is amazingly exceptional and this makes him a truly great drummer. And if I'm being honest with myself - Peter Criss' drum parts move me much more. They're more memorable, have more power and style behind them and they truly make me want to stomp and tap along to the music. His drumming has attitude, swagger or whatever you want to call it with the right amount of proficiency to carry all of it forward. Eric Singer, while he has moments of feel/attitude isn't consistent with moving me as a listener. As great as his stuff is, it's sometimes just "there" or and rarely makes me go "Yeah! Rock and roll!". His playing is exceptionally proficient and impeccably done and that sure can rock. However, I'd say he often lacks in feel, style and attitude. He has it here and there but it's really dependent on the song. I want to say Singer just because I know technically he is a better drummer - but I have to go with Criss. What he brought creatively and stylistically hasn't been outdone by anyone that came after him in KISS. Just the right amount of technical ability mixed in with the "it" factor that can make me move/feel with his attitude, style and such. I get what you are saying. Ace Frehley can't really sing, but for some reason - I love his vocals. There is something about his vocals that speak to me. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 17:31:54 GMT -5
I understand what S&S is saying completely. While Peter is technically the worst professional drummer in hard rock history, his feel, his swing, his making up for ability with creativity drove those early records and they would suck without him. I don't think Steve wants breakfast anymore after reading that. |
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Post by DWF on Feb 4, 2015 17:59:36 GMT -5
Correction: Everything regarding Criss' feel, etc should clearly be noted in the PAST TENSE
since '79. He threw it away....
Much like the problem with the Reunion era and so on, most folks don't keep up with their
favorites when they fall out of favor with their respective bands and are no longer high
profile. His club shows and projects showed for years that his playing was DONE.
He is proof of "careful what you wish for". LOL
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Post by DWF on Feb 4, 2015 18:01:52 GMT -5
HM- Can't believe I forgot Tichy, Carmassi, Mary, and Mangini.
Just talked to Brian and Ken the other day. Both are doing well and staying busy.
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 4, 2015 18:28:42 GMT -5
Correction: Everything regarding Criss' feel, etc should clearly be noted in the PAST TENSE since '79. He threw it away.... Much like the problem with the Reunion era and so on, most folks don't keep up with their favorites when they fall out of favor with their respective bands and are no longer high profile. His club shows and projects showed for years that his playing was DONE. He is proof of "careful what you wish for". LOL If you are going to bother to have a reunion, then I want a real reunion - it doesn't really matter to me if a certain member doesn't really have the chops that he used to have. That's not really the point. I know you are big on virtuosos and musicians that can play their instruments brilliantly, but I know going in that a 30 or 40 year old band having a reunion isn't going to be as good as they were when I was in my teens or my 20's. Especially if they weren't great musicians to begin with like KISS. |
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Post by Steve on Feb 4, 2015 19:00:19 GMT -5
I don't think Steve wants breakfast anymore after reading that. Peter was then, is now and ever will be totally, utterly and inexcusably shit. I will never understand how anyone can like him, or why Gene and Paul even hired him. His attitude may have been bearable if he was any good but, aside from the success of Beth, he had no bargaining chips at all. The first of many times he threatened to quit, I would have told him to fuck off and die, made sure he did so and kicked his corpse over a cliff. For those who had more experienced ears at the time, could you tell Peter didn't play on Dynasty or Unmasked? In hindsight the difference is obvious. Anton Fig plays things Criss' two functioning brain cells couldn't have come up with in a month of Sundays. |
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 4, 2015 19:21:26 GMT -5
I don't think Steve wants breakfast anymore after reading that. Peter was then, is now and ever will be totally, utterly and inexcusably shit. I will never understand how anyone can like him, or why Gene and Paul even hired him. His attitude may have been bearable if he was any good but, aside from the success of Beth, he had no bargaining chips at all. The first of many times he threatened to quit, I would have told him to fuck off and die, made sure he did so and kicked his corpse over a cliff. For those who had more experienced ears at the time, could you tell Peter didn't play on Dynasty or Unmasked? In hindsight the difference is obvious. Anton Fig plays things Criss' two functioning brain cells couldn't have come up with in a month of Sundays. You won't even give Peter a pass on the first few KISS albums? I think he is really good on Strange Ways - both as a drummer and his singing. |
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Post by Steve on Feb 4, 2015 19:26:13 GMT -5
I like the chorus fill in Cold Gin and there are some good moments on DTK, but not enough for me give him a passing grade. Also, his voice shits me to tears.
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Post by DWF on Feb 4, 2015 19:27:28 GMT -5
If you are going to bother to have a reunion, then I want a real reunion - it doesn't really matter to me if a certain member doesn't really have the chops that he used to have. That's not really the point. I know you are big on virtuosos and musicians that can play their instruments brilliantly, but I know going in that a 30 or 40 year old band having a reunion isn't going to be as good as they were when I was in my teens or my 20's. Especially if they weren't great musicians to begin with like KISS. Of course. Hence a "reunion". His issue isn't a chops question because there are none. Playing exceptionally well is admired. I just wanted Criss to play at a somewhat professional level - nothing more. His issue is a bit rare and many fans mask it with "it's an age thing", "it's a physical thing", "it's a pacing himself thing", "He sounded fine when I saw him" etc..etc.. and host of half-assed excuses. (Nice ears, folks. lol) He threw away his ability/career in his 30's on his vices and his psychosis. PERIOD. To come back to the band in '96 brandishing the same cocky attitude and totally lame playing and wrecking shows takes major balls. I know dozens of major players who were completely in shock at how bad he was live. They either saw him in the 70's or beat to death videos from that era and assumed he would be close to that. I warned a few ahead of time and they could not believe the total degradation. You rarely, if ever, see it get to that extent. |
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 4, 2015 19:35:52 GMT -5
If you are going to bother to have a reunion, then I want a real reunion - it doesn't really matter to me if a certain member doesn't really have the chops that he used to have. That's not really the point. I know you are big on virtuosos and musicians that can play their instruments brilliantly, but I know going in that a 30 or 40 year old band having a reunion isn't going to be as good as they were when I was in my teens or my 20's. Especially if they weren't great musicians to begin with like KISS. Of course. Hence a "reunion". His issue isn't a chops question because there are none. Playing exceptionally well is admired. I just wanted Criss to play at a somewhat professional level - nothing more. His issue is a bit rare and many fans mask it with "it's an age thing", "it's a physical thing", "it's a pacing himself thing", "He sounded fine when I saw him" etc..etc.. and host of half-assed excuses. (Nice ears, folks. lol) He threw away his ability/career in his 30's on his vices and his psychosis. PERIOD. To come back to the band in '96 brandishing the same cocky attitude and totally lame playing and wrecking shows takes major balls. I know dozens of major players who were completely in shock at how bad he was live. They either saw him in the 70's or beat to death videos from that era and assumed he would be close to that. I warned a few ahead of time and they could not believe the total degradation. You rarely, if ever, see it get to that extent. Well unfortunately Gene and Paul needed Peter for the reunion or else they would be fucked. Peter wasn't that great to begin with, so there is nowhere to go - but down. What were people expecting? But again, if you are going to have a reunion - you do the best with what you have and I was perfectly happy with the shows that I saw. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 19:39:45 GMT -5
Oh fuck...  |
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Post by DWF on Feb 4, 2015 19:50:04 GMT -5
Well unfortunately Gene and Paul needed Peter for the reunion or else they would be fucked. Peter wasn't that great to begin with, so there is nowhere to go - but down. What were people expecting? But again, if you are going to have a reunion - you do the best with what you have and I was perfectly happy with the shows that I saw. It's true. I can't begin to tell you the number of shows I caught between '96 and '03 when he was there. It pained me to go. (I went because it was them and to see friends on the staff, etc.) Never felt so torn about seeing a band before. It's what I always did and loved but he made it hard to witness. As I've mentioned before, had he carried himself in a humble fashion like Bill Ward, for instance, I would have tried to swallow it and give him the A for effort, like most. But watching him suck at sound check, suck during the shows, and suck as a person with most he interacted with on the road ERASED my fond childhood admiration completely. And the kicker is that now, when I see him try to a decent guy in interviews, signings, etc if feels forced and way too late, if that makes sense ? He had years to think about his behavior, playing, etc and he still never learned from it and still blames everybody else for his demise. Actually feel kind of sad for him - he can't see the reality of the situation at all. I have friends who still see him on occasion and they think he is definitely trying (at least in public) to be a bit more normal and human over the last 5-10 years. I gave up on him. |
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 4, 2015 19:57:15 GMT -5
Well unfortunately Gene and Paul needed Peter for the reunion or else they would be fucked. Peter wasn't that great to begin with, so there is nowhere to go - but down. What were people expecting? But again, if you are going to have a reunion - you do the best with what you have and I was perfectly happy with the shows that I saw. It's true. I can't begin to tell you the number of shows I caught between '96 and '03 when he was there. It pained me to go. (I went because it was them and to see friends on the staff, etc.) Never felt so torn about seeing a band before. It's what I always did and loved but he made it hard to witness. As I've mentioned before, had he carried himself in a humble fashion like Bill Ward, for instance, I would have tried to swallow it and give him the A for effort, like most. But watching him suck at sound check, suck during the shows, and suck as a person with most he interacted with on the road ERASED my fond childhood admiration completely. And the kicker is that now, when I see him try to a decent guy in interviews, signings, etc if feels forced and way too late, if that makes sense ? He had years to think about his behavior, playing, etc and he still never learned from it and still blames everybody else for his demise. Actually feel kind of sad for him - he can't see the reality of the situation at all. I have friends who still see him on occasion and they think he is definitely trying (at least in public) to be a bit more normal and human over the last 5-10 years. I gave up on him. You can't expect miracles from someone who was never that good of a drummer to begin with and really hadn't touched the drums at all more or less in a decade. Think of it this way, KISS would have died in the 90's and wouldn't be around today if not for the reunion, so thank Ace and Peter for that. |
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Post by DWF on Feb 4, 2015 20:00:01 GMT -5
For those who had more experienced ears at the time, could you tell Peter didn't play on Dynasty or Unmasked? In hindsight the difference is obvious. Anton Fig plays things Criss' two functioning brain cells couldn't have come up with in a month of Sundays. Absolutely. I was playing for about 4-5 years at that point and I went "Uh oh." Like many, I swore I was done with them when Billboard announced the split. "How dare they treat him like that." LOL Within 10 years, I started to learn exactly why.  |
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Post by DWF on Feb 4, 2015 20:01:15 GMT -5
Think of it this way, KISS would have died in the 90's and wouldn't be around today if not for the reunion, so thank Ace and Peter for that. KISS died in front of me every night back then .  |
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 4, 2015 20:15:16 GMT -5
Think of it this way, KISS would have died in the 90's and wouldn't be around today if not for the reunion, so thank Ace and Peter for that. KISS died in front of me every night back then . Then you should have stuck a fork in KISS - they were done. |
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Post by DWF on Feb 4, 2015 20:32:12 GMT -5
KISS died in front of me every night back then . Then you should have stuck a fork in KISS - they were done. Nah. Paul and Gene just had a temporary anchor attempting to drown them. It all worked out in the end. |
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 4, 2015 20:51:00 GMT -5
Then you should have stuck a fork in KISS - they were done. Nah. Paul and Gene just had a temporary anchor attempting to drown them. It all worked out in the end. If the reunion didn't happen, there would be no KISS today. Is the current band really what you call working out in the end? OK. |
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Post by DWF on Feb 4, 2015 21:28:17 GMT -5
Nah. Paul and Gene just had a temporary anchor attempting to drown them. It all worked out in the end. If the reunion didn't happen, there would be no KISS today. Is the current band really what you call working out in the end? OK. I keep hearing how bad it was and they were done. So was Rod Stewart, Sabbath, Journey, Styx, Leppard etc. There's always a death knell tolling by people who don't believe time works to the artists advantage.  For me and many others, sure. It worked out. Shame Paul has struggled over the last decade but it's nice to hear a band that can actually play well and not slow down, speed up or stop and restart a fuckin' song. LOL I lived through the classic 70's era and saw them live on a handful of occasions back then. I'm good. Didn't need to falsely hype the Reunion era make it out to be anymore than it was - a cash grab by 4 guys with zero interest in playing together at all, never mind doing it well. (I told you before - most of my favorite shows out of hundreds were WITHOUT the original band. Same goes for an endless number of other acts.) Let me spell it out loud and clear: I'll NEVER be the guy that wants to see Sykes and Coverdale work together if they don't like each other and there is no creative ability in the situation. I don't need ALL of the stars to line up. Just the ones that shine. |
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 4, 2015 21:40:13 GMT -5
If the reunion didn't happen, there would be no KISS today. Is the current band really what you call working out in the end? OK. I keep hearing how bad it was and they were done. So was Rod Stewart, Sabbath, Journey, Styx, Leppard etc. There's always a death knell tolling by people who don't believe time works to the artists advantage. For me and many others, sure. It worked out. Shame Paul has struggled over the last decade but it's nice to hear a band that can actually play well and not slow down, speed up or stop and restart a fuckin' song. LOL I lived through the classic 70's era and saw them live on a handful of occasions back then. I'm good. Didn't need to falsely hype the Reunion era make it out to be anymore than it was - a cash grab by 4 guys with zero interest in playing together at all, never mind doing it well. (I told you before - most of my favorite shows out of hundreds were WITHOUT the original band. Same goes for an endless number of other acts.) Let me spell it out loud and clear: I'll NEVER be the guy that wants to see Sykes and Coverdale work together if they don't like each other and there is no creative ability in the situation. I don't need ALL of the stars to line up. Just the ones that shine. The difference between KISS and those other bands is that Paul and Gene wouldn't have wanted to struggle and be able to only play clubs and hotels. They would have pulled the plug if Ace and Peter said no to a reunion - especially after Carnival Of Souls. Paul and Gene could probably make more money outside of KISS in other ways as opposed to the members of Styx, Def Leppard and Journey who really have nothing else going. It's way too late for Coverdale and Sykes now - but in the 90's when Kalodner was trying to get them to work together again - it might have been interesting. Now? Sykes is awful. How about a Marsden/Moody/Murray Whitesnake reunion? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 22:50:17 GMT -5
That's a tough question, in the end. In terms of which drummer I love listening to the most - I go by what I call the "Starr-Factor". What does that mean? It means that a drummer has to be able to make me move and feel. I have to want to start tapping along on my desk or steering wheel and I have to be wowed by the creativity and effectiveness of the drumming, like Ringo or Cozy Powell happens to do, easily. The solo in the song "The End" is so basic it's ridiculous - yet it's so infectiously effective and moves me as a listener. With Eric Singer - he's a truly proficient drummer, often creative yet usually straightforward and talented. A great drummer for those reasons, alone. He has some feel, for sure. With Peter Criss - he's average in his talent/proficiency yet in his style, feel and power, as well as his creativity - he is amazingly exceptional and this makes him a truly great drummer. And if I'm being honest with myself - Peter Criss' drum parts move me much more. They're more memorable, have more power and style behind them and they truly make me want to stomp and tap along to the music. His drumming has attitude, swagger or whatever you want to call it with the right amount of proficiency to carry all of it forward. Eric Singer, while he has moments of feel/attitude isn't consistent with moving me as a listener. As great as his stuff is, it's sometimes just "there" or and rarely makes me go "Yeah! Rock and roll!". His playing is exceptionally proficient and impeccably done and that sure can rock. However, I'd say he often lacks in feel, style and attitude. He has it here and there but it's really dependent on the song. I want to say Singer just because I know technically he is a better drummer - but I have to go with Criss. What he brought creatively and stylistically hasn't been outdone by anyone that came after him in KISS. Just the right amount of technical ability mixed in with the "it" factor that can make me move/feel with his attitude, style and such. I get what you are saying. Ace Frehley can't really sing, but for some reason - I love his vocals. There is something about his vocals that speak to me. Oh yes. Some people - like with Ace's vocals - the style is the substance for the listener. Ace was a vocalist, not a singer.  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 22:53:48 GMT -5
I don't think Steve wants breakfast anymore after reading that. Peter was then, is now and ever will be totally, utterly and inexcusably shit. I will never understand how anyone can like him, or why Gene and Paul even hired him. His attitude may have been bearable if he was any good but, aside from the success of Beth, he had no bargaining chips at all. The first of many times he threatened to quit, I would have told him to fuck off and die, made sure he did so and kicked his corpse over a cliff. For those who had more experienced ears at the time, could you tell Peter didn't play on Dynasty or Unmasked? In hindsight the difference is obvious. Anton Fig plays things Criss' two functioning brain cells couldn't have come up with in a month of Sundays. We get it, Steve. This is nearly an everyday thing for you, now.  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 22:59:27 GMT -5
I understand what S&S is saying completely. While Peter is technically the worst professional drummer in hard rock history, his feel, his swing, his making up for ability with creativity drove those early records and they would suck without him. Where we disagree is that he had any value whatsoever in the reunion era, Meg White could have done a better job... While I contend that he's nowhere near a "worst professional drummer" of anything (as I contend, he was average at worst up til '79, but his feel/swing/power elevated him to a great drummer) - but I'm glad you understand where all I'm coming from. It's also how I view Ringo, in a way. I don't think he was amazing or "great" during the Reunion, he was great in the '70s but that was 20 years before. At best he seemed solid and played what needed to. It lacked the depth, power and feel of the '70s, but it was serviceable for a reunion. For his work in the '70s - Peter was a great drummer and will always be one of my favorites. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 23:11:26 GMT -5
SheerHeartAttack is one of my new favorite posters. He echoes a lot of my own tastes and opinions, and I appreciate that he takes the time to define his stance. Kudos, yo!
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Post by Steve on Feb 5, 2015 0:23:46 GMT -5
We get it, Steve. This is nearly an everyday thing for you, now. Keep giving me ammo and I'll keep right on shooting my mouth off . |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 0:57:16 GMT -5
We get it, Steve. This is nearly an everyday thing for you, now. Keep giving me ammo and I'll keep right on shooting my mouth off .
Rock and Roll Over > Carnival of Souls |
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Post by Steve on Feb 5, 2015 1:00:55 GMT -5
You, sir, are clearly one one card short of a full deck and not quite the shilling . One wave short of a shipwreck, perhaps? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 1:04:47 GMT -5
You, sir, are clearly one one card short of a full deck and not quite the shilling . One wave short of a shipwreck, perhaps? Make no mistake, I am quite my usual top fitting, my dear. |
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Post by Anomacunt the Excellent on Feb 5, 2015 1:32:50 GMT -5
Bag of flaming dog shit > Carnival of Souls.
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