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Post by Hey Man on Dec 30, 2023 19:47:56 GMT -5
I just find it hard to quantify exactly what Vinnie brought to Kiss, as there are other factors at play. Kiss was in desperate situations both times with Vinnie, in which there was nowhere to go but up. After Unmasked and The Elder, a heavier record was going to happen with or without Vinnie. Same with Revenge - after Forever, Crazy Nights, Let's Put the X in Sex, Rock Hard, an Ezrin-produced Gene single was going to sound like Mozart to Kiss fans; and it was going to happen with or without Vinnie. Robert Horry won 7 NBA championships, but was a reserve every time. Valuable player, but no one hails him as a basketball god. And that's what rubs people the wrong way with Vinnie. Creatures was my first concert, and Vinnie was a part of that. I would gladly honor him for that, but all the revisionist history and demigod horse---- is completely off-putting. Ibanez makes great guitars in general. But the flashy locking tremolos, etc. was anathema to the alternative/grunge crowd. So the company found its niche with metal and shredders. You are overthinking it. It comes down to him contributing to the best albums KISS did (greatly to LIU) outside of the original band and a decline that happened quality wise immediately when he was gone - only for it recover again when they brought him back. I completely believe Animalize would have been FAR better had he remained in the band and that goes without saying if he stuck around from Asylum to HITS as well. However my position here doesn't mean that I think Vinnie is this massive talent or top level guitarist. We are talking about KISS though. A band that have released far more garbage than any band ever should. So any praise of Vinnie with his work with KISS is merely just pointing out that he was able to elevate KISS to better than usual...but it is still KISS. Creatures and LIU are great for KISS, but are not really competitive with other hard rock bands of the time and the albums they were releasing. However KISS couldn't do any better no matter what. So Vinnie was just the right person at the the right moment when KISS needed someone like him. Keep in mind too that KISS auditioned a bunch of guitarists that I am sure you would find far more respectable than Vinnie as some have gone on to make names for themselves, but they didn't make the cut funny enough in KISS World.
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Post by Hey Man on Dec 30, 2023 20:00:09 GMT -5
I wonder if this thread will give Sphinxie an alert where he must fight to the death in defending Vinnie.
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Post by Joma on Dec 30, 2023 21:16:24 GMT -5
I will give Vinnie the Lick It Up album as he cowrote most of it, but again, the best of Creatures isn't Vinnie's...shy of ILIL. Vinnie or no, KISS would have looked to do a heavy album at that point. You can say KISS went downhill immediately after, but you're quite partial to Gene and Gene largely checked out at that very point. Animalize is supposedly a weak album thanks to Gene...mind you, I dig his tunes, but it's a fairly strong Paul album. I've Had Enough is as good as anything Paul did on LIU. I know you don't dig HOF, but it's way better than the song LIU. Thrills is solid, as is UTG, and while most rip it, I think GAYCT is the best Paul tune on the album. IMO, Paul is much better on Animalize than LIU...but Gene is much stronger on LIU. I think that has more to do with effort than Vinnie, though. I do love Not For the Innocent, but other than that, I like Gene's songs he wrote on his own better than his Vinnie co-writes.
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Post by Hey Man on Dec 30, 2023 21:45:44 GMT -5
I will give Vinnie the Lick It Up album as he cowrote most of it, but again, the best of Creatures isn't Vinnie's...shy of ILIL. Vinnie or no, KISS would have looked to do a heavy album at that point. You can say KISS went downhill immediately after, but you're quite partial to Gene and Gene largely checked out at that very point. Animalize is supposedly a weak album thanks to Gene...mind you, I dig his tunes, but it's a fairly strong Paul album. I've Had Enough is as good as anything Paul did on LIU. I know you don't dig HOF, but it's way better than the song LIU. Thrills is solid, as is UTG, and while most rip it, I think GAYCT is the best Paul tune on the album. IMO, Paul is much better on Animalize than LIU...but Gene is much stronger on LIU. I think that has more to do with effort than Vinnie, though. I do love Not For the Innocent, but other than that, I like Gene's songs he wrote on his own better than his Vinnie co-writes. Well I Love It Loud is a pretty important here. Take that away and Creatures is even more of a failure without the song that has stood the test of time for them and is a KISS classic. I said the decline started with Animalize, so it was still somewhat decent - but it really went off the rails on the following albums. I still maintain Animalize would have been much better had Vinnie stuck around for one more album at least. Yes, I really don't like Heaven's On Fire. I think Exciter is better than anything Paul did on Animalize.
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Post by Joma on Dec 30, 2023 22:04:50 GMT -5
Is ILIL that important or was it just a kick ass video? War Machine coulda likely done the same if it got the same promotion.
I like Exciter...I like IHE better. But opinions...
I think they were going softer after Animalize whether Vinnie is there or not.
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Post by Hey Man on Dec 30, 2023 22:22:06 GMT -5
Is ILIL that important or was it just a kick ass video? War Machine coulda likely done the same if it got the same promotion. I like Exciter...I like IHE better. But opinions... I think they were going softer after Animalize whether Vinnie is there or not. While the video was cool when we were young, it didn't really do anything for the band as Creatures tanked, but it has grown to be an essential KISS classic that even casuals know. While I love War Machine, ILIL is more of an anthem so to speak that works well with audiences live like Rock And All Nite. So it has that kind of appeal to the kind of people who maybe know a handful of KISS songs. We all have our song and album preferences. Someone like Bruce thinks Asylum is the greatest thing KISS ever did, but it is Creatures and LIU that are viewed as their best output in the 80's by the vast majority and probably KISS themselves - like Destroyer and Alive in the 70's. Now this doesn't mean one has to automatically love those albums, but it is what it is when talking about KISS' album legacy.
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Post by Joma on Dec 30, 2023 22:33:09 GMT -5
They sort of chose what their classics were in the set...ILIL wasn't a big hit. They don't have to play it...they just chose to long enough that it became a staple. I agree there's a bit of anthemic business going on, which is likely why they continued to play it, but they continued to play Say Suck and the KCG started treating that like some big deal...oh, it went over well! A few more tours with that turd and it would have been a staple, too.
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Post by Hey Man on Dec 30, 2023 22:46:45 GMT -5
They sort of chose what their classics were in the set...ILIL wasn't a big hit. They don't have to play it...they just chose to long enough that it became a staple. I agree there's a bit of anthemic business going on, which is likely why they continued to play it, but they continued to play Say Suck and the KCG started treating that like some big deal...oh, it went over well! A few more tours with that turd and it would have been a staple, too. It wasn't a big hit, but KISS doesn't have big hits, so on a KISS level - it became a KISS classic pretty quickly along with Lick It Up and Heavens On Fire. They did the remix on Smashes and it was the first single/video for Alive III. It is one of the very few KISS songs everyone knows due to the exposure it has received - gets played at sporting events, etc. They may not know it is KISS, but they have heard the song. The only reason why Say Yeah is played is because Paul wants to give Kold Gin some credibility by playing something from the current band, but no one gives a fuck about that song or would say that a new KISS greatest hits is lacking because Say Yeah isn't on it, but it would be stupid to not include I Love It Loud.
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Post by Mr. Blackwell on Dec 30, 2023 22:56:33 GMT -5
I just find it hard to quantify exactly what Vinnie brought to Kiss, as there are other factors at play. Kiss was in desperate situations both times with Vinnie, in which there was nowhere to go but up. After Unmasked and The Elder, a heavier record was going to happen with or without Vinnie. Same with Revenge - after Forever, Crazy Nights, Let's Put the X in Sex, Rock Hard, an Ezrin-produced Gene single was going to sound like Mozart to Kiss fans; and it was going to happen with or without Vinnie. Robert Horry won 7 NBA championships, but was a reserve every time. Valuable player, but no one hails him as a basketball god. And that's what rubs people the wrong way with Vinnie. Creatures was my first concert, and Vinnie was a part of that. I would gladly honor him for that, but all the revisionist history and demigod horse---- is completely off-putting. Ibanez makes great guitars in general. But the flashy locking tremolos, etc. was anathema to the alternative/grunge crowd. So the company found its niche with metal and shredders. You are overthinking it. It comes down to him contributing to the best albums KISS did (greatly to LIU) outside of the original band and a decline that happened quality wise immediately when he was gone - only for it recover again when they brought him back. I completely believe Animalize would have been FAR better had he remained in the band and that goes without saying if he stuck around from Asylum to HITS as well. However my position here doesn't mean that I think Vinnie is this massive talent or top level guitarist. We are talking about KISS though. A band that have released far more garbage than any band ever should. So any praise of Vinnie with his work with KISS is merely just pointing out that he was able to elevate KISS to better than usual...but it is still KISS. Creatures and LIU are great for KISS, but are not really competitive with other hard rock bands of the time and the albums they were releasing. However KISS couldn't do any better no matter what. So Vinnie was just the right person at the the right moment when KISS needed someone like him. Keep in mind too that KISS auditioned a bunch of guitarists that I am sure you would find far more respectable than Vinnie as some have gone on to make names for themselves, but they didn't make the cut funny enough in KISS World. The quality part is subjective. I don't think Lick It Up is great in any way. Young and Wasted is fast, without direction, and little discernible melody; Gimme More is Ted Nugent's Stranglehold riff sped up, with some of the worst lyrics ever written; All Hell's Breaking Loose - who thought that was a good idea? Fits Like a Glove - a mirror image of Young and Wasted, overused riff, no melody, needlessly fast, stupid lyrics. They played this live throughout the 80's thinking it was a fan favorite, but no one knew it. When I saw them, Gene always tried to get the crowd to sing "Through butter." No one did, as few knew the song, and Gene got pi**ed off. They are throwaway tracks that Vinnie and his fans think by claiming them to be classics over and over, they will be. Like Joma, I prefer the strong tracks on Animalize. HOF isn't great, but better than LIU. I've Had Enough is solid, and Mark's solo is better than any solo Vinnie did in Kiss; Thrills in the Night is excellent, and way better than anything VVI; GAYCT is very good and actually grooves; Under the Gun isn't quite as forced as Young and Wasted. Revenge is basically a polished turd. Some Spinal Tap caliber songs with world-class production. The weak albums Kiss released were because they had a lucrative contract with guarantees, and the band was hurting financially. They also were chasing their label mates Def Leppard and Bon Jovi. It's not like Vinnie arrived and all that changed. And if he had some magical, musical touch, why hasn't he worked since getting dropped? Andy Timmons, a shredder, was Olivia Newton John's musical director for ages. Fred Coury does music for the LA Kings. Steve Plunkett has scored themes for major television shows; etc. Like I said, I'm ok with the guy, but let's stop the revisionist history and demigod status.
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Post by Hey Man on Dec 30, 2023 23:18:31 GMT -5
You are overthinking it. It comes down to him contributing to the best albums KISS did (greatly to LIU) outside of the original band and a decline that happened quality wise immediately when he was gone - only for it recover again when they brought him back. I completely believe Animalize would have been FAR better had he remained in the band and that goes without saying if he stuck around from Asylum to HITS as well. However my position here doesn't mean that I think Vinnie is this massive talent or top level guitarist. We are talking about KISS though. A band that have released far more garbage than any band ever should. So any praise of Vinnie with his work with KISS is merely just pointing out that he was able to elevate KISS to better than usual...but it is still KISS. Creatures and LIU are great for KISS, but are not really competitive with other hard rock bands of the time and the albums they were releasing. However KISS couldn't do any better no matter what. So Vinnie was just the right person at the the right moment when KISS needed someone like him. Keep in mind too that KISS auditioned a bunch of guitarists that I am sure you would find far more respectable than Vinnie as some have gone on to make names for themselves, but they didn't make the cut funny enough in KISS World. The quality part is subjective. I don't think Lick It Up is great in any way. Young and Wasted is fast, without direction, and little discernible melody; Gimme More is Ted Nugent's Stranglehold riff sped up, with some of the worst lyrics ever written; All Hell's Breaking Loose - who thought that was a good idea? Fits Like a Glove - a mirror image of Young and Wasted, overused riff, no melody, needlessly fast, stupid lyrics. They played this live throughout the 80's thinking it was a fan favorite, but no one knew it. When I saw them, Gene always tried to get the crowd to sing "Through butter." No one did, as few knew the song, and Gene got pi**ed off. They are throwaway tracks that Vinnie and his fans think by claiming them to be classics over and over, they will be. Like Joma, I prefer the strong tracks on Animalize. HOF isn't great, but better than LIU. I've Had Enough is solid, and Mark's solo is better than any solo Vinnie did in Kiss; Thrills in the Night is excellent, and way better than anything VVI; GAYCT is very good and actually grooves; Under the Gun isn't quite as forced as Young and Wasted. Revenge is basically a polished turd. Some Spinal Tap caliber songs with world-class production. The weak albums Kiss released were because they had a lucrative contract with guarantees, and the band was hurting financially. They also were chasing their label mates Def Leppard and Bon Jovi. It's not like Vinnie arrived and all that changed. And if he had some magical, musical touch, why hasn't he worked since getting dropped? Andy Timmons, a shredder, was Olivia Newton John's musical director for ages. Fred Coury does music for the LA Kings. Steve Plunkett has scored themes for major television shows; etc. Like I said, I'm ok with the guy, but let's stop the revisionist history and demigod status. Like I said, we are talking about KISS here and despite any preferences - Creatures and LIU are their landmark albums from the 80's and the ones that have the most respect like Alive and Destroyer in the 70's. Again for KISS albums. Not as being among the greatest albums in rock history. Unholy is a great song...again for KISS. KISS was always chasing something, so that doesn't really make a difference. No one is giving Vinnie demigod status either. You know why he hasn't worked - it is a silly question to ask. Even if he was super talented by your standards - his personality, ego, fucking over fans and his burning of bridges would have torpedoed his career just the same.
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Post by Joma on Dec 30, 2023 23:23:56 GMT -5
They sort of chose what their classics were in the set...ILIL wasn't a big hit. They don't have to play it...they just chose to long enough that it became a staple. I agree there's a bit of anthemic business going on, which is likely why they continued to play it, but they continued to play Say Suck and the KCG started treating that like some big deal...oh, it went over well! A few more tours with that turd and it would have been a staple, too. It wasn't a big hit, but KISS doesn't have big hits, so on a KISS level - it became a KISS classic pretty quickly along with Lick It Up and Heavens On Fire. They did the remix on Smashes and it was the first single/video for Alive III. It is one of the very few KISS songs everyone knows due to the exposure it has received - gets played at sporting events, etc. They may not know it is KISS, but they have heard the song. The only reason why Say Yeah is played is because Paul wants to give Kold Gin some credibility by playing something from the current band, but no one gives a fuck about that song or would say that a new KISS greatest hits is lacking because Say Yeah isn't on it, but it would be stupid to not include I Love It Loud. That'll happen when you force a song for 40+ years. It's a decent, catchy song, but it only is what it is because they chose to play it every tour. War Machine could have been the same thing had they promoted it to start and forced it instead. Say Suck could be the same if they gave it the same attention for 40 years. I'm not saying ILIL sucks, but it's only a staple because they chose to make it one.
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Post by kissoff on Dec 30, 2023 23:26:50 GMT -5
It wasn't a big hit, but KISS doesn't have big hits, so on a KISS level - it became a KISS classic pretty quickly along with Lick It Up and Heavens On Fire. They did the remix on Smashes and it was the first single/video for Alive III. It is one of the very few KISS songs everyone knows due to the exposure it has received - gets played at sporting events, etc. They may not know it is KISS, but they have heard the song. The only reason why Say Yeah is played is because Paul wants to give Kold Gin some credibility by playing something from the current band, but no one gives a fuck about that song or would say that a new KISS greatest hits is lacking because Say Yeah isn't on it, but it would be stupid to not include I Love It Loud. That'll happen when you force a song for 40+ years. It's a decent, catchy song, but it only is what it is because they chose to play it every tour. War Machine could have been the same thing had they promoted it to start and forced it instead. Say Suck could be the same if they gave it the same attention for 40 years. I'm not saying ILIL sucks, but it's only a staple because they chose to make it one. I think Rio had a lot to do with putting ILIL on the map setlist wise.
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Post by Hey Man on Dec 30, 2023 23:33:14 GMT -5
It wasn't a big hit, but KISS doesn't have big hits, so on a KISS level - it became a KISS classic pretty quickly along with Lick It Up and Heavens On Fire. They did the remix on Smashes and it was the first single/video for Alive III. It is one of the very few KISS songs everyone knows due to the exposure it has received - gets played at sporting events, etc. They may not know it is KISS, but they have heard the song. The only reason why Say Yeah is played is because Paul wants to give Kold Gin some credibility by playing something from the current band, but no one gives a fuck about that song or would say that a new KISS greatest hits is lacking because Say Yeah isn't on it, but it would be stupid to not include I Love It Loud. That'll happen when you force a song for 40+ years. It's a decent, catchy song, but it only is what it is because they chose to play it every tour. War Machine could have been the same thing had they promoted it to start and forced it instead. Say Suck could be the same if they gave it the same attention for 40 years. I'm not saying ILIL sucks, but it's only a staple because they chose to make it one. I guess you could say that about any song - maybe if KISS force fed audience Read My Body, it would be essential at a KISS concert now. Very unlikely. I am not saying ILIL is this great song, but it is an anthem of sorts, has a "single" quality and it is pretty understandable why it became a KISS classic pretty quickly. It's not like people were saying in 83/84 - why are they still playing ILIL like we talk about Say Yeah. It was an audience highlight even then and on Animalize Live.
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Post by Hey Man on Dec 30, 2023 23:34:46 GMT -5
That'll happen when you force a song for 40+ years. It's a decent, catchy song, but it only is what it is because they chose to play it every tour. War Machine could have been the same thing had they promoted it to start and forced it instead. Say Suck could be the same if they gave it the same attention for 40 years. I'm not saying ILIL sucks, but it's only a staple because they chose to make it one. I think Rio had a lot to do with putting ILIL on the map setlist wise. Yep that too. ILIL went over big.
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Post by Joma on Dec 30, 2023 23:45:46 GMT -5
To be fair, the biggest reason Say Suck is a huge WTF is because the set list is/was stale as fuck and the only place they stepped off the beaten path was for Say Suck. If they mixed it up regularly, Say Suck wouldn't stand out so much.
As for Rio and ILIL...helps when non-English speakers can easily participate. And for anyone...don't need to know they lyrics, just chant some sounds. I totally get why they played it to death live, but it wasn't because it was a huge hit or some amazing tune. It had a bit of catchy to it and they played the shit out of it...hence a classic staple.
FWIW, I would have been beyond pumped had they busted out RMB at any point before Gene and Paul joined Tommy's Tribute Band.
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Post by Hey Man on Dec 30, 2023 23:47:51 GMT -5
To be fair, the biggest reason Say Suck is a huge WTF is because the set list is/was stale as fuck and the only place they stepped off the beaten path was for Say Suck. If they mixed it up regularly, Say Suck wouldn't stand out so much. As for Rio and ILIL...helps when non-English speakers can easily participate. And for anyone...don't need to know they lyrics, just chant some sounds. I totally get why they played it to death live, but it wasn't because it was a huge hit or some amazing tune. It had a bit of catchy to it and they played the shit out of it...hence a classic staple. FWIW, I would have been beyond pumped had they busted out RMB at any point before Gene and Paul joined Tommy's Tribute Band. OK come clean. For all the shit KO gave me over Read My Body - you really like the song.
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Post by Joma on Dec 30, 2023 23:55:51 GMT -5
To be fair, the biggest reason Say Suck is a huge WTF is because the set list is/was stale as fuck and the only place they stepped off the beaten path was for Say Suck. If they mixed it up regularly, Say Suck wouldn't stand out so much. As for Rio and ILIL...helps when non-English speakers can easily participate. And for anyone...don't need to know they lyrics, just chant some sounds. I totally get why they played it to death live, but it wasn't because it was a huge hit or some amazing tune. It had a bit of catchy to it and they played the shit out of it...hence a classic staple. FWIW, I would have been beyond pumped had they busted out RMB at any point before Gene and Paul joined Tommy's Tribute Band. OK come clean. For all the shit KO gave me over Read My Body - you really like the song. I've said plenty of times RMB is a guilty pleasure...then again there are very few KISS tunes before COS that I don't care for. If I'm not mistaken, I think KO sorta likes it even. Only reason he gives you shit about it is because he knows you hate it...and there's that funny YT video he likes to go back to with the shtick that it's you.
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Post by Hey Man on Dec 31, 2023 0:11:50 GMT -5
OK come clean. For all the shit KO gave me over Read My Body - you really like the song. I've said plenty of times RMB is a guilty pleasure...then again there are very few KISS tunes before COS that I don't care for. If I'm not mistaken, I think KO sorta likes it even. Only reason he gives you shit about it is because he knows you hate it...and there's that funny YT video he likes to go back to with the shtick that it's you. So I guess when I tell my Hide Your Heart story - little Joma at the time was loving that song and you probably think I am fucked for having such a negative reaction to it.
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Post by Joma on Dec 31, 2023 0:21:52 GMT -5
Dunno about the fucked part, but I do like the song. Funnily enough, I think my least favorite song on HITS is probably Betrayed, which many consider that the best song. I don't get that at all...I don't dislike the song, but it's still probably my least favorite on the album.
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Post by Hey Man on Dec 31, 2023 0:29:24 GMT -5
Dunno about the fucked part, but I do like the song. Funnily enough, I think my least favorite song on HITS is probably Betrayed, which many consider that the best song. I don't get that at all...I don't dislike the song, but it's still probably my least favorite on the album. Even compared to the much criticized Boomerang?
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Post by Joma on Dec 31, 2023 0:37:42 GMT -5
I like Boomerang...and No, No, No. Not the biggest fan of most of Paul's fast songs, though. Gimme More and I'm Alive are both meh. I do like Under The Gun, though...
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Post by Hey Man on Dec 31, 2023 0:50:56 GMT -5
I like Boomerang too. My fave songs on the album are probably Prisoner Of Love and Street Giveth. I really don't like any Paul songs on this one.
By the way, I do love Get All You Can Take.
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Post by Joma on Dec 31, 2023 0:58:11 GMT -5
I dig Street Giveth quite a bit. My fave songs are probably that, Cadillac Dreams, and Little Caesar. But I like the whole album.
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Post by Hey Man on Dec 31, 2023 1:00:36 GMT -5
What is your stance on Asylum and CN? Like them both mostly?
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Post by Joma on Dec 31, 2023 1:09:20 GMT -5
What is your stance on Asylum and CN? Like them both mostly? Yes, like them both. CN is probably my least favorite this side of COS and beyond, but I like it, and it was my first KISS album. I like Asylum well enough, too.
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Post by Mr. Blackwell on Dec 31, 2023 4:43:24 GMT -5
The quality part is subjective. I don't think Lick It Up is great in any way. Young and Wasted is fast, without direction, and little discernible melody; Gimme More is Ted Nugent's Stranglehold riff sped up, with some of the worst lyrics ever written; All Hell's Breaking Loose - who thought that was a good idea? Fits Like a Glove - a mirror image of Young and Wasted, overused riff, no melody, needlessly fast, stupid lyrics. They played this live throughout the 80's thinking it was a fan favorite, but no one knew it. When I saw them, Gene always tried to get the crowd to sing "Through butter." No one did, as few knew the song, and Gene got pi**ed off. They are throwaway tracks that Vinnie and his fans think by claiming them to be classics over and over, they will be. Like Joma, I prefer the strong tracks on Animalize. HOF isn't great, but better than LIU. I've Had Enough is solid, and Mark's solo is better than any solo Vinnie did in Kiss; Thrills in the Night is excellent, and way better than anything VVI; GAYCT is very good and actually grooves; Under the Gun isn't quite as forced as Young and Wasted. Revenge is basically a polished turd. Some Spinal Tap caliber songs with world-class production. The weak albums Kiss released were because they had a lucrative contract with guarantees, and the band was hurting financially. They also were chasing their label mates Def Leppard and Bon Jovi. It's not like Vinnie arrived and all that changed. And if he had some magical, musical touch, why hasn't he worked since getting dropped? Andy Timmons, a shredder, was Olivia Newton John's musical director for ages. Fred Coury does music for the LA Kings. Steve Plunkett has scored themes for major television shows; etc. Like I said, I'm ok with the guy, but let's stop the revisionist history and demigod status. Like I said, we are talking about KISS here and despite any preferences - Creatures and LIU are their landmark albums from the 80's and the ones that have the most respect like Alive and Destroyer in the 70's. Again for KISS albums. Not as being among the greatest albums in rock history. Unholy is a great song...again for KISS. KISS was always chasing something, so that doesn't really make a difference. No one is giving Vinnie demigod status either. You know why he hasn't worked - it is a silly question to ask. Even if he was super talented by your standards - his personality, ego, fucking over fans and his burning of bridges would have torpedoed his career just the same. In fairness, Vinnie/Sphinx affixed godlike status to Vinnie/himself, and there were some who drank the Kool-Aid; at forums as well as those who paid crazy sums to attend his cult meetings. The proof was Creaturesfest - for years followers swore he could still 'shred,' but despite Vinnie doing his best to confiscate cameras, clips of him playing leaked - and they were terrible. We're talking so bad they could get a 13 year old kicked out of Guitar Center playing like that. And that was kind of my point of using this thread as clickbait for my own video. His refusal to release even a short clip and having guards go after ones filming, is extremely pompous and arrogant. And his excuses for not doing a clip are nonsensical. With YouTube Shorts you can literally have a video up in less than a minute. So I was just agreeing with redinthesky, who rips Vinnie over that. As for my efforts, I'm far from an influencer, but in just a day +, I got over 400 views. That's a lot for me, and again, it took little time to do. I actually did three, and here is the final one. It's actually my favorite of the bunch. It's a slow, chromatic melody that sounded almost atonal when I first read through it. But with the chords, it's a gorgeous, romantic melody. Some of the jazz composers outdid their classical counterparts in the 20th Century.
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Post by kissoff on Dec 31, 2023 8:23:19 GMT -5
OK come clean. For all the shit KO gave me over Read My Body - you really like the song. I've said plenty of times RMB is a guilty pleasure...then again there are very few KISS tunes before COS that I don't care for. If I'm not mistaken, I think KO sorta likes it even. Only reason he gives you shit about it is because he knows you hate it...and there's that funny YT video he likes to go back to with the shtick that it's you. GC has never really proven otherwise. I mean he recently let loose his house is painted Vinnie Vincent pink. Next we'll discover he's offered Bruce an internship as remote scientific research consultant for Canada's coastline water quality minus fish milt and any foreseeable Homeless relocation movement with Slow's FAQ All Stars handling any related media promo jingles. He also desires to be a Jollibee franchisee with MTS handling greeter duties. He's probably in some way involved with the Avatars too and he absolutely believes he gets the better of Stretch Armstrong. He's likely also shared fresh squeezed OJ with Still Alive. Think about it.
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Post by battra on Dec 31, 2023 11:58:03 GMT -5
Taking the make up off saved Kiss. There's really no other evidence. Vinnie's songwriting didn't save Creatures of the Night. The lack of Vinnie's songwriting didn't kill Animalize. The argument is the wave and energy from COTN breathed new life into LIU, but that doesn't make sense, because no one bought COTN. Again it wasn't about success, but quality. No one bought Creatures, because there was a fan exodus and Creatures was too little too late. Nothing would have changed that. However KISS did release their 2 best albums in a row outside of the original band with Vinnie doing the heavy lifting on the LIU songwriting. Then creatively a decline started with Animalize and then the bottom fell out from Asylum to HITS. Logic would dictate that Vinnie was the missing ingredient as a reigned in songwriter with KISS. Even people who didn't like Vinnie on guitar, felt that KISS should have kept him as a songwriter and they are right. KISS having a comeback creatively FINALLY YEARS LATER with Vinnie writing Unholy proves that. Quality? OK. Creatures of the Night was a 30/30/30 record. 30% killer. 30% filler. 30% chiller. Lick it Up was a 30/30/390 record. 30% killer. 30% filler. 30% chiller. So, it's not like he elevated them to some godlike level. He got them back to where they were...and I'm being generous on LIU honestly.
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Post by Hey Man on Dec 31, 2023 12:55:45 GMT -5
Again it wasn't about success, but quality. No one bought Creatures, because there was a fan exodus and Creatures was too little too late. Nothing would have changed that. However KISS did release their 2 best albums in a row outside of the original band with Vinnie doing the heavy lifting on the LIU songwriting. Then creatively a decline started with Animalize and then the bottom fell out from Asylum to HITS. Logic would dictate that Vinnie was the missing ingredient as a reigned in songwriter with KISS. Even people who didn't like Vinnie on guitar, felt that KISS should have kept him as a songwriter and they are right. KISS having a comeback creatively FINALLY YEARS LATER with Vinnie writing Unholy proves that. Quality? OK. Creatures of the Night was a 30/30/30 record. 30% killer. 30% filler. 30% chiller. Lick it Up was a 30/30/390 record. 30% killer. 30% filler. 30% chiller. So, it's not like he elevated them to some godlike level. He got them back to where they were...and I'm being generous on LIU honestly. I don't know what to tell you, except it's KISS. Every album has a lot of filler. They have NEVER made a truly great album from front to back that is competitive with what other bands were doing. Even the debut while having a bunch of songs that became KISS classics - the versions are far better on Alive and there is almost no point in listening to the debut - no energy, production is bad, etc. I might make an exception for Hotter Than Hell, but even then KISS couldn't get it right and the production was literally botched ruining any chance that the album might have been viewed as a landmark 70's album. Destroyer is viewed as their best album of the 70's. It is what it is. It is the only album that will get any recognition outside of KISS sheep. As we move into the 80's, Creatures and LIU are viewed as their best. I would say even by the band themselves, since they have since been critical of their 80's output. Now fair enough if those two albums make your overrated list as Destroyer does for many KISS fans - that is something else entirely, but those two albums would be the objective answer you should be reluctantly giving when you go on a game show to win millions and are asked to name the only two albums outside of the original band that are KISS' best/have any level of respect for a band like KISS. To pick any other two albums even if you prefer them would be moronic in terms of a money bet. Proudly shouting that Animalize and Asylum or Crazy Nights and HITS are KISS' landmark 80's albums would just be silly and you would be going home with an awful consolation prize. Honestly I LOVE The Elder and go back to it far more than Creatures and LIU these days, but I understand why it is hated and despite my subjective view, I wouldn't answer with The Elder simply because of that subjective view. It is wrong objectively as a landmark 80's KISS album. I know that.
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Post by Hey Man on Dec 31, 2023 14:02:42 GMT -5
Like I said, we are talking about KISS here and despite any preferences - Creatures and LIU are their landmark albums from the 80's and the ones that have the most respect like Alive and Destroyer in the 70's. Again for KISS albums. Not as being among the greatest albums in rock history. Unholy is a great song...again for KISS. KISS was always chasing something, so that doesn't really make a difference. No one is giving Vinnie demigod status either. You know why he hasn't worked - it is a silly question to ask. Even if he was super talented by your standards - his personality, ego, fucking over fans and his burning of bridges would have torpedoed his career just the same. In fairness, Vinnie/Sphinx affixed godlike status to Vinnie/himself, and there were some who drank the Kool-Aid; at forums as well as those who paid crazy sums to attend his cult meetings. The proof was Creaturesfest - for years followers swore he could still 'shred,' but despite Vinnie doing his best to confiscate cameras, clips of him playing leaked - and they were terrible. We're talking so bad they could get a 13 year old kicked out of Guitar Center playing like that. And that was kind of my point of using this thread as clickbait for my own video. His refusal to release even a short clip and having guards go after ones filming, is extremely pompous and arrogant. And his excuses for not doing a clip are nonsensical. With YouTube Shorts you can literally have a video up in less than a minute. So I was just agreeing with redinthesky, who rips Vinnie over that. As for my efforts, I'm far from an influencer, but in just a day +, I got over 400 views. That's a lot for me, and again, it took little time to do. I actually did three, and here is the final one. It's actually my favorite of the bunch. It's a slow, chromatic melody that sounded almost atonal when I first read through it. But with the chords, it's a gorgeous, romantic melody. Some of the jazz composers outdid their classical counterparts in the 20th Century. Yes, there are certainly people who do think Vinnie should be mentioned in the same breath as Eddie Van Halen. I am not one of them. I think he was great for KISS and his output with them on 3 albums. I would have liked to have heard much more if that working relationship could have continued since I think the albums without him are seriously lacking - some more than others ala Animalize isn't as bad as later albums, but that is where it ends. Gave VVI a chance - did not like at all. He is a complete mess otherwise and has ruined any opportunities he might have had. Now let me tell you a story of someone you do respect who is similar to Vinnie in a lot of ways - but who also torpedoed their career and no one wants to work with him: John Sykes. Sykes tried to get Coverdale fired from his own band and was ultimately fired from Whitesnake. While the first Blue Murder was more or less smooth sailing, the second album was not and John Kalodner was having problems with Sykes due to his ego and thinking he is a star. Bob Rock didn't return as John Sykes insisted on producing the album and took so long with it going for "perfection" that Geffen was just done with him and released the album with zero support. Fast forward with a bunch of solo albums that went nowhere, a massive alcohol problem and ultimately no one wanting to work with him because he was a pain in the ass. Finally a new opportunity presented itself - Mike Portnoy and Billy Sheehan wanted to put a new classic rock style band together and they thought Sykes would be perfect. Until they started working with him and then had to say fuck this and cut Sykes loose. He was a mess to work with. The Winery Dogs were then born with Richie Kotzen taking over and continue to this day. Like Vinnie supposedly, John also has a new album in the can - like done maybe 5/10 years ago and tracks have come out, but it still hasn't seen the light of day as on official release. Distribution deals fell through and apparently Sykes is so out of touch with the internet/technology - that he can't even figure out how to release it himself and apparently no one gives a shit to help him. Not even Frontiers want to deal with Sykes and release the album - and they hand out deals like candy to former 80's bands/artists. So his new album remains unreleased and Sykes has been forgotten. I understand the point of the thread and I even agree with it. I wish Vinnie would post something. In a way, I want him to prove the naysayers wrong - I am a sucker for comebacks, but clearly he has mental issues and I am not saying that mockingly, but I do think he is mentally compelled to just stay in his bubble and safe spaces - regardless of his musical ability. Even if he could play amazingly, he isn't going to tour. He would turn down opening for Poison, Motley and Def Leppard on some package tour, because it is entirely another problem that Vinnie has. I really dig these videos. You should showcase more guitars. I want you to do a Les Paul focused video and talk about yours. Here's a challenge since you can do these videos so quickly with your position on Vinnie - let's see a shredding video. I would be very curious to see/hear you do 80's shredding now.
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