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Post by Hey Man on Feb 10, 2024 21:37:05 GMT -5
I often see on KISSFAQ and other forums whenever someone is talking about a musician they love or claim is the best per whatever the topic is about that they say they KNOW what they are talking about BECAUSE they also play the guitar or drums or whatever. Here is a recent example and let me just say that I like Erik, so this isn't about bashing him. www.kissfaq.com/forum24/viewtopic.php?p=3821821#p3821821Now granted I will concede that a musician will have a better understanding about the abilities and the performance of another musician than I would - for me it is just comes down to what I like or what sounds to me like great guitar playing or drumming. However because someone is able to play an instrument - does that really put them in a position to say so and so is the best guitarist or drummer or whatever with any real validity? Or is it still just a subjective view and being a musician yourself doesn't really add any more weight to your opinion? I imagine Blackwell will say it does, but I think he might be an exception to the rule, because he has lived, breathed and studied music and the guitar for his career for decades - where as I think most musicians on the forums are more of the amateur variety. Curious what people think here about this. Do you value someone's opinion more about a musician, because they are also a musician? |
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Post by Joma on Feb 10, 2024 21:56:19 GMT -5
More often than not, that's going to be the case...but I wouldn't say it's a rule across the board. Typically someone that studies music and has a decent level of understanding is going to end up playing themselves...and typically someone that doesn't play is going to just be about whatever sounds good to them and not really care about the technicalities. But it doesn't have to be that way. I think you're pretty much one of those exceptions, HM... I think you pay enough attention to have a pretty good idea of what's fucking hard as shit and what's basic.
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 10, 2024 22:15:31 GMT -5
More often than not, that's going to be the case...but I wouldn't say it's a rule across the board. Typically someone that studies music and has a decent level of understanding is going to end up playing themselves...and typically someone that doesn't play is going to just be about whatever sounds good to them and not really care about the technicalities. But it doesn't have to be that way. I think you're pretty much one of those exceptions, HM... I think you pay enough attention to have a pretty good idea of what's fucking hard as shit and what's basic. Well thank you for thinking I am an exception here. This will also apply to musicians they think are just OK ala I play the drums, so I know that Peter Criss is a mediocre drummer, etc. I am not saying a musician doesn't have more insight over those who can't play an instrument, but I do think some bring up their own musical ability in a bragging sort of way to justify their opinion about something that they think they are right about. |
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Post by Mr. Blackwell on Feb 11, 2024 0:04:48 GMT -5
Lots of layers to this.
For starters, there's really no such thing as 'best.' CC DeVille was the best guitarist for Poison, while John Petrucci was the best guitarist for Dream Theater. Swap bands, and neither does very well.
Secondly, it brings up the unanswerable question of the importance of technical ability. Personally, I need players to have at least some instrumental proficiency; but I don't like being beaten over the head with it.
Obviously, others feel differently, and on each extreme.
As for a so-called "musician's" opinion carrying more weight, it depends.
I am definitely a Doubting Thomas; I don't believe the vast majority of what people claim on the internet. Does Erik have videos posted of himself playing drums? Like I said in the Vinnie thread, anyone with a phone can easily post videos.
If he had videos of himself playing like Jeff Porcaro, I would give more credence to his views. I may still disagree, but if he was a player, I'd listen to what he had to say.
That's why I put a lot of merit in what Quincy Jones said about the Beatles and Hendrix. Jones not only produced the biggest album in history, when great musicians of the 20th Century are discussed, he's in the conversation with Duke Ellington, Miles Davis, and Charlie Parker.
Again, it doesn't mean I agree with everything he says; but what he says carries more weight with me than someone on the internet, so-called 'influencer' or otherwise.
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 11, 2024 0:19:42 GMT -5
Lots of layers to this. For starters, there's really no such thing as 'best.' CC DeVille was the best guitarist for Poison, while John Petrucci was the best guitarist for Dream Theater. Swap bands, and neither does very well. Secondly, it brings up the unanswerable question of the importance of technical ability. Personally, I need players to have at least some instrumental proficiency; but I don't like being beaten over the head with it. Obviously, others feel differently, and on each extreme. As for a so-called "musician's" opinion carrying more weight, it depends. I am definitely a Doubting Thomas; I don't believe the vast majority of what people claim on the internet. Does Erik have videos posted of himself playing drums? Like I said in the Vinnie thread, anyone with a phone can easily post videos. If he had videos of himself playing like Jeff Porcaro, I would give more credence to his views. I may still disagree, but if he was a player, I'd listen to what he had to say. That's why I put a lot of merit in what Quincy Jones said about the Beatles and Hendrix. Jones not only produced the biggest album in history, when great musicians of the 20th Century are discussed, he's in the conversation with Duke Ellington, Miles Davis, and Charlie Parker. Again, it doesn't mean I agree with everything he says; but what he says carries more weight with me than someone on the internet, so-called 'influencer' or otherwise. No we are not talking about "name" people here. In this context it is just about the fans online - is someone who is actually a musician in some capacity hold more weight than say me for example who doesn't play an instrument. I get your point though about Erik. He has posted videos in the past with bands he was in, but I don't know how much he plays now outside of playing at home. But sure if his past playing was impressive, then it is understandable that someone like you might listen to him. I just see this a lot online that if someone plays an instrument, it is just a given in their view that their opinion supersedes anyone who isn't a musician. To the point that they will say something like - I have been playing guitar, bass or drums for 20 years, I think I know more than you do about who is the better guitarist, bassist or drummer. But of course more than not, we don't know how good they actually are or what level they are at as a musician. |
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Post by Mr. Blackwell on Feb 11, 2024 1:13:14 GMT -5
Lots of layers to this. For starters, there's really no such thing as 'best.' CC DeVille was the best guitarist for Poison, while John Petrucci was the best guitarist for Dream Theater. Swap bands, and neither does very well. Secondly, it brings up the unanswerable question of the importance of technical ability. Personally, I need players to have at least some instrumental proficiency; but I don't like being beaten over the head with it. Obviously, others feel differently, and on each extreme. As for a so-called "musician's" opinion carrying more weight, it depends. I am definitely a Doubting Thomas; I don't believe the vast majority of what people claim on the internet. Does Erik have videos posted of himself playing drums? Like I said in the Vinnie thread, anyone with a phone can easily post videos. If he had videos of himself playing like Jeff Porcaro, I would give more credence to his views. I may still disagree, but if he was a player, I'd listen to what he had to say. That's why I put a lot of merit in what Quincy Jones said about the Beatles and Hendrix. Jones not only produced the biggest album in history, when great musicians of the 20th Century are discussed, he's in the conversation with Duke Ellington, Miles Davis, and Charlie Parker. Again, it doesn't mean I agree with everything he says; but what he says carries more weight with me than someone on the internet, so-called 'influencer' or otherwise. No we are not talking about "name" people here. In this context it is just about the fans online - is someone who is actually a musician in some capacity hold more weight than say me for example who doesn't play an instrument. I get your point though about Erik. He has posted videos in the past with bands he was in, but I don't know how much he plays now outside of playing at home. But sure if his past playing was impressive, then it is understandable that someone like you might listen to him. I just see this a lot online that if someone plays an instrument, it is just a given in their view that their opinion supersedes anyone who isn't a musician. To the point that they will say something like - I have been playing guitar, bass or drums for 20 years, I think I know more than you do about who is the better guitarist, bassist or drummer. But of course more than not, we don't know how good they actually are or what level they are at as a musician. Absolutely. I see that a lot, too. Ultimately, we all have to draw our own conclusions. I'm analytical by nature, and therefore understand my own tastes; which in turn, affects my opinions. For instance - I have nothing against showmanship. But I am much more in favor of substance over style, especially in my older years. When I was a teen, Larry Carlton was completely off my radar. I was much more into the new school of fast, flashy guitar players. But his playing, and others like him, really connected with me in my late 30's. There actually isn't much in Carlton's work that's overly difficult to play; but he always played the right notes in the right spots, and he made every note count. (Basically the complete opposite of Vinnie Vincent.  ) As such, I have a longtime student who has vastly different opinions, mainly because - in my opinion - he's being dazzled by the showmanship, which covers the lack of unique note choices. Two main examples - Prince's solo on While My Guitar Gently Weeps, and Roy Clark's appearance on The Odd Couple. My student thinks these are the two greatest guitar performances ever. Prince sells his solo maybe better than anyone ever has; but musically, his lines are all stock, pentatonic cliches. Roy Clark dazzles, but something like Mediterranean Sundance (DeLucia, DiMeola) is far richer in terms of melody and harmony. They just don't "sell it" like Clark. So you'll find musicians with vastly different opinions. |
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 11, 2024 1:32:14 GMT -5
No we are not talking about "name" people here. In this context it is just about the fans online - is someone who is actually a musician in some capacity hold more weight than say me for example who doesn't play an instrument. I get your point though about Erik. He has posted videos in the past with bands he was in, but I don't know how much he plays now outside of playing at home. But sure if his past playing was impressive, then it is understandable that someone like you might listen to him. I just see this a lot online that if someone plays an instrument, it is just a given in their view that their opinion supersedes anyone who isn't a musician. To the point that they will say something like - I have been playing guitar, bass or drums for 20 years, I think I know more than you do about who is the better guitarist, bassist or drummer. But of course more than not, we don't know how good they actually are or what level they are at as a musician. Absolutely. I see that a lot, too. Ultimately, we all have to draw our own conclusions. I'm analytical by nature, and therefore understand my own tastes; which in turn, affects my opinions. For instance - I have nothing against showmanship. But I am much more in favor of substance over style, especially in my older years. When I was a teen, Larry Carlton was completely off my radar. I was much more into the new school of fast, flashy guitar players. But his playing, and others like him, really connected with me in my late 30's. There actually isn't much in Carlton's work that's overly difficult to play; but he always played the right notes in the right spots, and he made every note count. (Basically the complete opposite of Vinnie Vincent. ) As such, I have a longtime student who has vastly different opinions, mainly because - in my opinion - he's being dazzled by the showmanship, which covers the lack of unique note choices. Two main examples - Prince's solo on While My Guitar Gently Weeps, and Roy Clark's appearance on The Odd Couple. My student thinks these are the two greatest guitar performances ever. Prince sells his solo maybe better than anyone ever has; but musically, his lines are all stock, pentatonic cliches. Roy Clark dazzles, but something like Mediterranean Sundance (DeLucia, DiMeola) is far richer in terms of melody and harmony. They just don't "sell it" like Clark. So you'll find musicians with vastly different opinions. Honestly I get a sense that the vast majority of people on hard rock/metal forums bragging about their musical instrument experience that somehow confirms that they know what they are talking about - are mostly people who may have been active musicians 20 or 30 years ago, but are not really now. |
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Post by Mr. Blackwell on Feb 11, 2024 2:01:33 GMT -5
Absolutely. I see that a lot, too. Ultimately, we all have to draw our own conclusions. I'm analytical by nature, and therefore understand my own tastes; which in turn, affects my opinions. For instance - I have nothing against showmanship. But I am much more in favor of substance over style, especially in my older years. When I was a teen, Larry Carlton was completely off my radar. I was much more into the new school of fast, flashy guitar players. But his playing, and others like him, really connected with me in my late 30's. There actually isn't much in Carlton's work that's overly difficult to play; but he always played the right notes in the right spots, and he made every note count. (Basically the complete opposite of Vinnie Vincent. ) As such, I have a longtime student who has vastly different opinions, mainly because - in my opinion - he's being dazzled by the showmanship, which covers the lack of unique note choices. Two main examples - Prince's solo on While My Guitar Gently Weeps, and Roy Clark's appearance on The Odd Couple. My student thinks these are the two greatest guitar performances ever. Prince sells his solo maybe better than anyone ever has; but musically, his lines are all stock, pentatonic cliches. Roy Clark dazzles, but something like Mediterranean Sundance (DeLucia, DiMeola) is far richer in terms of melody and harmony. They just don't "sell it" like Clark. So you'll find musicians with vastly different opinions. Honestly I get a sense that the vast majority of people on hard rock/metal forums bragging about their musical instrument experience that somehow confirms that they know what they are talking about - are mostly people who may have been active musicians 20 or 30 years ago, but are not really now. I agree. Like I mentioned, it's not that hard to post a clip! |
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 11, 2024 2:10:53 GMT -5
Honestly I get a sense that the vast majority of people on hard rock/metal forums bragging about their musical instrument experience that somehow confirms that they know what they are talking about - are mostly people who may have been active musicians 20 or 30 years ago, but are not really now. I agree. Like I mentioned, it's not that hard to post a clip! I like that you are more confident and willing to post stuff. I mentioned in some other thread that during the original run of this forum and I think on KISSFAQ, you weren't as willing to post your videos. |
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Post by Mr. Blackwell on Feb 11, 2024 3:40:27 GMT -5
I agree. Like I mentioned, it's not that hard to post a clip! I like that you are more confident and willing to post stuff. I mentioned in some other thread that during the original run of this forum and I think on KISSFAQ, you weren't as willing to post your videos. I can't recall. I think I first posted videos around '09, and I shared them at kissfaq. I had just put out an album and got a lot of support there (this was pre-streaming). I also contributed a cover of Reason To Live to the first Music From the FAQ, which got a great response. I used to let my perfectionist tendencies inhibit me; which I still deal with, but have gotten much better with. I've definitely gained more confidence, and I think it's also with the sheer volume of videos released, it doesn't matter if a video is your best. |
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