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Post by Hey Man on Feb 20, 2024 23:22:49 GMT -5
While there is plenty to call out Wolfgang Van Halen out on, I don't really get the calling him out or mocking him for his weight. Especially when most people who do call him out on his weight - are most likely fat themselves. Wolfgang seems to be a very talented bitter young asshole - who doesn't care for the Van Halen fans who want to tell him constantly how much they loved his father and VH. I can't really blame him there, but he handles it very badly and is alienating people all around him, which isn't exactly the best career move. So he get attacked by 50 and 60 years old's and since making fun of someone's weight is the easiest thing to do, they have leaned in on attacking him for that. I guess fair game as a semi-celebrity in the internet age, but where I find it odd is that we have had overweight guitarists before and no one really gave a shit. I mean sure if you like them - then you just accepted that they are overweight and don't call them a fat fuck, but just enjoyed their music. Leslie West was overweight all his life. So much so - he embraced it and called one of his solo albums The Great Fatsby.  There was B.B. King - who got so overweight that he had to play guitar sitting down. There are others over the decades. Of course I am not comparing Wolfgang to West or King at all, but why does it really matter if Wolf is fat or any other musician for that matter? People pretend that they are really just concerned for their health, but that is bullshit. They just get their kicks making fat jokes and when questioned about the jokes - act like they care and don't want Wolfgang to die young. And no, this isn't a leave Wolfgang alone post - he has made his bed in a lot of ways and now has to lie in it, but I was a fan of Mountain for example and it was just understood to me that West was a big guy and that's how it was going to be with him. I didn't care. If I didn't like Mountain, I wouldn't be mocking the guy for his weight. I would just have moved on with my life. It probably is just connected to social media in general and people just attacking someone they don't like over their looks for whatever reason, because it is the easiest thing to do. I just thought it is specifically interesting that fat old rock fans are giving Wolfgang shit for being fat - which is hilarious and hypocritical in itself, when we never really cared in the past about musicians being overweight. |
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Post by Joma on Feb 21, 2024 0:04:18 GMT -5
which is hilarious and hypocritical in itself, when we never really cared in the past about musicians being overweight. Really? That always seemed the first thing that was called out when the artist was overweight and one didn't care for them for whatever reason... This is definitely not new to WVH. |
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 21, 2024 0:13:47 GMT -5
which is hilarious and hypocritical in itself, when we never really cared in the past about musicians being overweight. Really? That always seemed the first thing that was called out when the artist was overweight and one didn't care for them for whatever reason... This is definitely not new to WVH. I am not saying it is new to Wolfgang, but it just seems so much more excessive than musicians past like say Yngwie when he gained weight or even jokes about Gene like we have seen. I get that the internet makes it this way and that didn't exist in the 70's, but I don't really recall other guitarists getting attacked this viciously and daily. Can you give me some examples to counter the two I provided? Not saying you are wrong or trying to argue - I just want to be reminded and say oh ya, I forgot about him and maybe I am talking out of my ass here.  To clarify, I know women are attacked all the time for their weight, but this is more specific to men and hard rock fans, when there has been plenty of overweight male musicians and it just seemed to be accepted with mild jokes made if anything vs. what Wolfgang is getting if you have followed that at all from most likely fat people themselves. |
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Post by Joma on Feb 21, 2024 0:49:30 GMT -5
I don't follow WVH so I guess I don't see to what extent he gets it...but it doesn't sound like anything new...and especially if he's a douche. How about Gooch? Any time he comes up, it takes about 2 seconds before there's a fat comment...
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 21, 2024 1:10:03 GMT -5
I don't follow WVH so I guess I don't see to what extent he gets it...but it doesn't sound like anything new...and especially if he's a douche. How about Gooch? Any time he comes up, it takes about 2 seconds before there's a fat comment... Fair point, but he was called fat even when people liked him. I am not saying fat jokes are some new thing now, but in the context that I provided - I don't recall it being so excessive and hypocritically so with people calling him out who would happily go to an all you can eat buffet themselves or WITH Wolfgang due to their own weight problems. I get that it is rooted in people just not liking him and that is the easiest way to attack him. I just think if his father was fat, they wouldn't give a shit - Eddie Van Halen would just be a known as a brilliant guitarist who happens to be overweight. I am not comparing Wolfgang to Eddie either. He is talented in his own right, but Eddie is something else entirely. It is more about just not recalling guys giving a shit about overweight musicians for the most part. Or maybe I am just drunk posting at 1 AM. |
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Post by kissoff on Feb 21, 2024 1:13:20 GMT -5
I knew this guy who wasn't fat but had a beer belly who wore a shirt at parties that said 'I may be fat, but you're ugly and I can diet'.
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Post by Mr. Blackwell on Feb 21, 2024 1:25:10 GMT -5
Can you give me some examples to counter the two I provided? Vince Neil, Axl Rose, Carnie Wilson and Ann Wilson (no relation, obviously). All have received lots of innuendos about their weight. It's gotten off limits to make fat jokes about women, which is a good thing. But the guys still seem to be fair game. I disagree with all of it, have never and will never make fun of someone because of their weight; but will admit some of those names for Wolf they come up with on Sludge are hysterical. |
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 21, 2024 1:31:56 GMT -5
Can you give me some examples to counter the two I provided? Vince Neil, Axl Rose, Carnie Wilson and Ann Wilson (no relation, obviously). All have received lots of innuendos about their weight. It's gotten off limits to make fat jokes about women, which is a good thing. But the guys still seem to be fair game. I disagree with all of it, have never and will never make fun of someone because of their weight; but will admit some of those names for Wolf they come up with on Sludge are hysterical. Sure, but I just don't see it at the same level and I get why - they like Axl and Vince ultimately or the music they made. And yes, it is entirely worse for women. No argument there. Ironically Stevie is packing on the pounds now, which makes the hypocrisy just with Metal Sludge and it's members all the more laughably hypocritical. Ever see photos from hard rock conventions and rock cruises? They are the last people on Earth that should be critical of anyone's weight. |
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Post by Mr. Blackwell on Feb 21, 2024 1:49:14 GMT -5
Vince Neil, Axl Rose, Carnie Wilson and Ann Wilson (no relation, obviously). All have received lots of innuendos about their weight. It's gotten off limits to make fat jokes about women, which is a good thing. But the guys still seem to be fair game. I disagree with all of it, have never and will never make fun of someone because of their weight; but will admit some of those names for Wolf they come up with on Sludge are hysterical. Sure, but I just don't see it at the same level and I get why - they like Axl and Vince ultimately or the music they made. And yes, it is entirely worse for women. No argument there. Ironically Stevie is packing on the pounds now, which makes the hypocrisy just with Metal Sludge and it's members all the more laughably hypocritical. Ever see photos from hard rock conventions and rock cruises? They are the last people on Earth that should be critical of anyone's weight. Part of that is social media, which empowers those spreading hate. I don't recall seeing pics from those cruises, but I have read attendees joke about visiting the gym on the ship and it being empty. I know Sludge constantly made fun of the Kiss meet-n-greet photos. I haven't seen any recent pics of Stevie. I will say, though, he can be very funny at times. I just read his thoughts on Susanna Hoffs and was chuckling. forums.metalsludge.tv/forums/viewtopic.php?p=7764997#p7764997 |
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 21, 2024 1:55:18 GMT -5
Sure, but I just don't see it at the same level and I get why - they like Axl and Vince ultimately or the music they made. And yes, it is entirely worse for women. No argument there. Ironically Stevie is packing on the pounds now, which makes the hypocrisy just with Metal Sludge and it's members all the more laughably hypocritical. Ever see photos from hard rock conventions and rock cruises? They are the last people on Earth that should be critical of anyone's weight. Part of that is social media, which empowers those spreading hate. I don't recall seeing pics from those cruises, but I have read attendees joke about visiting the gym on the ship and it being empty. I know Sludge constantly made fun of the Kiss meet-n-greet photos. I haven't seen any recent pics of Stevie. I will say, though, he can be very funny at times. I just read his thoughts on Susanna Hoffs and was chuckling. forums.metalsludge.tv/forums/viewtopic.php?p=7764997#p7764997I saw that. You seem to like Stevie and his commentary in general much more than I do. I think he is kind of a punchline. |
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Post by Mr. Blackwell on Feb 21, 2024 2:12:49 GMT -5
Part of that is social media, which empowers those spreading hate. I don't recall seeing pics from those cruises, but I have read attendees joke about visiting the gym on the ship and it being empty. I know Sludge constantly made fun of the Kiss meet-n-greet photos. I haven't seen any recent pics of Stevie. I will say, though, he can be very funny at times. I just read his thoughts on Susanna Hoffs and was chuckling. forums.metalsludge.tv/forums/viewtopic.php?p=7764997#p7764997I saw that. You seem to like Stevie and his commentary in general much more than I do. I think he is kind of a punchline. I guess it's like Decline of Western Civilization. Stevie isn't for everyone, but he's often very funny. |
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 21, 2024 2:33:29 GMT -5
I saw that. You seem to like Stevie and his commentary in general much more than I do. I think he is kind of a punchline. I guess it's like Decline of Western Civilization. Stevie isn't for everyone, but he's often very funny. I am all for "offensive" comedians and people who push the envelope - so it isn't that. Your exposure to him is probably more limited compared to mine, so I have seen the man behind the curtain so to speak and he is kind of pathetic. However I get it if you just pop in from time to time, you may not get the same impression. |
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Post by Mr. Blackwell on Feb 21, 2024 2:44:04 GMT -5
I guess it's like Decline of Western Civilization. Stevie isn't for everyone, but he's often very funny. I am all for "offensive" comedians and people who push the envelope - so it isn't that. Your exposure to him is probably more limited compared to mine, so I have seen the man behind the curtain so to speak and he is kind of pathetic. However I get it if you just pop in from time to time, you may not get the same impression. Yes, I only occasionally pop in at Sludge and know next to nothing about Stevie. I'm actually not that into deliberately offensive comedians (though that isn't why I don't partake in fat jokes, or anything else mocking someone's appearance). I just find the low-hanging fruit too easy. |
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 21, 2024 2:51:29 GMT -5
I am all for "offensive" comedians and people who push the envelope - so it isn't that. Your exposure to him is probably more limited compared to mine, so I have seen the man behind the curtain so to speak and he is kind of pathetic. However I get it if you just pop in from time to time, you may not get the same impression. Yes, I only occasionally pop in at Sludge and know next to nothing about Stevie. I'm actually not that into deliberately offensive comedians (though that isn't why I don't partake in fat jokes, or anything else mocking someone's appearance). I just find the low-hanging fruit too easy. Fair enough. I thought you were suggesting that Decline/Stevie may cross some sort of line for humor sake and that may not be for some people or even me for that matter now. I just wanted to clarify that I enjoy many comedians and other entertainers that are controversial, so it isn't that. |
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Post by Mr. Blackwell on Feb 21, 2024 14:36:04 GMT -5
Yes, I only occasionally pop in at Sludge and know next to nothing about Stevie. I'm actually not that into deliberately offensive comedians (though that isn't why I don't partake in fat jokes, or anything else mocking someone's appearance). I just find the low-hanging fruit too easy. Fair enough. I thought you were suggesting that Decline/Stevie may cross some sort of line for humor sake and that may not be for some people or even me for that matter now. I just wanted to clarify that I enjoy many comedians and other entertainers that are controversial, so it isn't that. I think the whole pushing the envelope thing ran its course decades ago. Now when someone tries to be 'shocking,' my reaction is, "Couldn't you think of anything better?" Nowadays with clickbait, the faux outrage is deliberately calculated. But the only way a musician is going to 'shock' me would be by writing a memorable melody, or coming up with a cool chord change, or a unique rhythm, or playing a meaningful solo. If he or she managed to do more than one, I'd not only be shocked; I'd have a heart attack.  Stevie is playing a Kelly Bundy-esque character online; it's an extension of his personality, but still a character. I've seen him get defensive if people cross that line and bring his family into it. He's not everyone's cup of tea. Like posters said in that Decline thread at Sludge, if one is analyzing Decline for its musical content, treatment of women, etc., they completely missed the point, and lack the self-awareness to even realize. And its the same with Stevie's online persona. More often than not I find him funny and think he does a solid job with it. |
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Post by kissoff on Feb 21, 2024 14:39:11 GMT -5
Fair enough. I thought you were suggesting that Decline/Stevie may cross some sort of line for humor sake and that may not be for some people or even me for that matter now. I just wanted to clarify that I enjoy many comedians and other entertainers that are controversial, so it isn't that. I think the whole pushing the envelope thing ran its course decades ago. Now when someone tries to be 'shocking,' my reaction is, "Couldn't you think of anything better?" Nowadays with clickbait, the faux outrage is deliberately calculated. But the only way a musician is going to 'shock' me would be by writing a memorable melody, or coming up with a cool chord change, or a unique rhythm, or playing a meaningful solo. If he or she managed to do more than one, I'd not only be shocked; I'd have a heart attack. Stevie is playing a Kelly Bundy-esque character online; it's an extension of his personality, but still a character. I've seen him get defensive if people cross that line and bring his family into it. He's not everyone's cup of tea. Like posters said in that Decline thread at Sludge, if one is analyzing Decline for its musical content, treatment of women, etc., they completely missed the point, and lack the self-awareness to even realize. And its the same with Stevie's online persona. More often than not I find him funny and think he does a solid job with it. I enjoyed his Tuff Diaries. |
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 21, 2024 16:11:39 GMT -5
Fair enough. I thought you were suggesting that Decline/Stevie may cross some sort of line for humor sake and that may not be for some people or even me for that matter now. I just wanted to clarify that I enjoy many comedians and other entertainers that are controversial, so it isn't that. I think the whole pushing the envelope thing ran its course decades ago. Now when someone tries to be 'shocking,' my reaction is, "Couldn't you think of anything better?" Nowadays with clickbait, the faux outrage is deliberately calculated. But the only way a musician is going to 'shock' me would be by writing a memorable melody, or coming up with a cool chord change, or a unique rhythm, or playing a meaningful solo. If he or she managed to do more than one, I'd not only be shocked; I'd have a heart attack. Stevie is playing a Kelly Bundy-esque character online; it's an extension of his personality, but still a character. I've seen him get defensive if people cross that line and bring his family into it. He's not everyone's cup of tea. Like posters said in that Decline thread at Sludge, if one is analyzing Decline for its musical content, treatment of women, etc., they completely missed the point, and lack the self-awareness to even realize. And its the same with Stevie's online persona. More often than not I find him funny and think he does a solid job with it. It depends on who it is. There are great intelligent comedians and commentators that push the envelope not for shock value necessarily, but just being honest and real or telling harsh truths. Not unlike George Carlin. You don't strike me as someone watching comedy specials now, etc. Stevie is more the attention whore variety - just saying bullshit for shock value or of a sexual nature to excite 50 year old men on Sludge. I think much of what he says is embellished or just made up for shock value. His website is all he really has going on with the Sludge audience he has and he desperately wants to hold on to these people as forums are dying. I don't find him funny and he sure as shit isn't intelligent, but obviously you disagree. I think you are trying to make a point about Decline that may not actually be there. While much of it was staged - a lot of what went on in the doc was happening in real life and is still happening now. I am not sure what you mean by self awareness here. That just sounds like a comment people make to justify it or maybe their behavior at the time. Are you really suggesting that I am lacking self awareness because my views of that movie has changed in certain ways? Come on. |
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Post by Mr. Blackwell on Feb 21, 2024 17:17:06 GMT -5
I think the whole pushing the envelope thing ran its course decades ago. Now when someone tries to be 'shocking,' my reaction is, "Couldn't you think of anything better?" Nowadays with clickbait, the faux outrage is deliberately calculated. But the only way a musician is going to 'shock' me would be by writing a memorable melody, or coming up with a cool chord change, or a unique rhythm, or playing a meaningful solo. If he or she managed to do more than one, I'd not only be shocked; I'd have a heart attack. Stevie is playing a Kelly Bundy-esque character online; it's an extension of his personality, but still a character. I've seen him get defensive if people cross that line and bring his family into it. He's not everyone's cup of tea. Like posters said in that Decline thread at Sludge, if one is analyzing Decline for its musical content, treatment of women, etc., they completely missed the point, and lack the self-awareness to even realize. And its the same with Stevie's online persona. More often than not I find him funny and think he does a solid job with it. It depends on who it is. There are great intelligent comedians and commentators that push the envelope not for shock value necessarily, but just being honest and real or telling harsh truths. Not unlike George Carlin. You don't strike me as someone watching comedy specials now, etc. Stevie is more the attention whore variety - just saying bullshit for shock value or of a sexual nature to excite 50 year old men on Sludge. I think much of what he says is embellished or just made up for shock value. His website is all he really has going on with the Sludge audience he has and he desperately wants to hold on to these people as forums are dying. I don't find him funny and he sure as shit isn't intelligent, but obviously you disagree. I think you are trying to make a point about Decline that may not actually be there. While much of it was staged - a lot of what went on in the doc was happening in real life and is still happening now. I am not sure what you mean by self awareness here. That just sounds like a comment people make to justify it or maybe their behavior at the time. Are you really suggesting that I am lacking self awareness because my views of that movie has changed in certain ways? Come on. George Carlin was in a different era. Look, even the Beatles pushed the envelope on Ed Sullivan because they had 'long hair.' Now you can go to the grocery store and see grandmothers in their sixties with full sleeve tattoos, facial piercings, etc. and it's completely normal. So going for shock is going for the low-hanging fruit. If it makes people happy, generates clicks, etc., then go for it. It's just not my thing, at all. I never said Stevie was intelligent, and do agree he is an attention whore. But who with any kind of social media presence isn't? But I do think you sell him short, especially when you come to the defence of a con artist like Vinnie. Stevie licensed Tuff's first album, had it remastered, pressed on vinyl, and sells it. He has booked Tuff all over the world, is on the MORC playing the same day alongside Darkness, Ace, etc. And to his credit, Stevie admits his musical limitations. Vinnie is the complete opposite. He thinks he's some songwriting god, a shred guru, and he books grandiose events that he always manages to get sick just before. Stevie is doing SO much more and with so much less, since he doesn't have a Kiss affiliation to bilk. I wasn't saying you lack self-awareness regarding Decline, but they guy in that video certainly does. And I never said it didn't happen that way, despite being staged. That's why it's great - it did happen that way! But the guy took everything way out of context. Decline represented the very bottom of the barrel and the real far-out characters were never going to 'make it' in the music biz in the late 80's. To think they cost him gigs after he put in 10,000 hours? You couldn't even make wine out of those misplaced sour grapes! |
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 21, 2024 21:29:08 GMT -5
It depends on who it is. There are great intelligent comedians and commentators that push the envelope not for shock value necessarily, but just being honest and real or telling harsh truths. Not unlike George Carlin. You don't strike me as someone watching comedy specials now, etc. Stevie is more the attention whore variety - just saying bullshit for shock value or of a sexual nature to excite 50 year old men on Sludge. I think much of what he says is embellished or just made up for shock value. His website is all he really has going on with the Sludge audience he has and he desperately wants to hold on to these people as forums are dying. I don't find him funny and he sure as shit isn't intelligent, but obviously you disagree. I think you are trying to make a point about Decline that may not actually be there. While much of it was staged - a lot of what went on in the doc was happening in real life and is still happening now. I am not sure what you mean by self awareness here. That just sounds like a comment people make to justify it or maybe their behavior at the time. Are you really suggesting that I am lacking self awareness because my views of that movie has changed in certain ways? Come on. George Carlin was in a different era. Look, even the Beatles pushed the envelope on Ed Sullivan because they had 'long hair.' Now you can go to the grocery store and see grandmothers in their sixties with full sleeve tattoos, facial piercings, etc. and it's completely normal. So going for shock is going for the low-hanging fruit. If it makes people happy, generates clicks, etc., then go for it. It's just not my thing, at all. I never said Stevie was intelligent, and do agree he is an attention whore. But who with any kind of social media presence isn't? But I do think you sell him short, especially when you come to the defence of a con artist like Vinnie. Stevie licensed Tuff's first album, had it remastered, pressed on vinyl, and sells it. He has booked Tuff all over the world, is on the MORC playing the same day alongside Darkness, Ace, etc. And to his credit, Stevie admits his musical limitations. Vinnie is the complete opposite. He thinks he's some songwriting god, a shred guru, and he books grandiose events that he always manages to get sick just before. Stevie is doing SO much more and with so much less, since he doesn't have a Kiss affiliation to bilk. I wasn't saying you lack self-awareness regarding Decline, but they guy in that video certainly does. And I never said it didn't happen that way, despite being staged. That's why it's great - it did happen that way! But the guy took everything way out of context. Decline represented the very bottom of the barrel and the real far-out characters were never going to 'make it' in the music biz in the late 80's. To think they cost him gigs after he put in 10,000 hours? You couldn't even make wine out of those misplaced sour grapes! What you are referring to with shock isn't what I am talking about at all. Those are just style and fashion changes over time. People with piercings or tats are not looking to shock people - those things are tame by today's standards. It is just a change in trends. Like guys with a man bun. I would expect tattoos and piercings to be no big deal now. It actually is the opposite now because it has become so normalized - you are kind of lame if you are tatted up which is why many people are getting them removed. Sure Stevie is a worker, but the thing is - he never should have been signed in the first place and Tuff is an insult to worthier bands that probably should have gotten the break instead. His entire existence is just Atlantic Records singing Tuff because they wanted their own Poison on the label - not because they actually believed they were the next great band like Guns N Roses or something. I can't respect that Stevie was just a Bret Michaels wannabe. In fact, I kind of resent his existence when I know of so many bands that should have been in his place that were just overlooked for whatever reason. You need to keep in mind that even with movies like Decline and Spinal Tap, many rock stars have come out and said that they were much more real than audiences probably realize. So much so, some were actually convinced that Spinal Tap was about specific real life bands - meaning that what happened in Spinal Tap was so common, it could have been about 20 different bands. That these kinds of movies were almost TOO real that what was funny to general public audiences wasn't funny to them because they lived it. |
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Post by Mr. Blackwell on Feb 22, 2024 0:12:23 GMT -5
George Carlin was in a different era. Look, even the Beatles pushed the envelope on Ed Sullivan because they had 'long hair.' Now you can go to the grocery store and see grandmothers in their sixties with full sleeve tattoos, facial piercings, etc. and it's completely normal. So going for shock is going for the low-hanging fruit. If it makes people happy, generates clicks, etc., then go for it. It's just not my thing, at all. I never said Stevie was intelligent, and do agree he is an attention whore. But who with any kind of social media presence isn't? But I do think you sell him short, especially when you come to the defence of a con artist like Vinnie. Stevie licensed Tuff's first album, had it remastered, pressed on vinyl, and sells it. He has booked Tuff all over the world, is on the MORC playing the same day alongside Darkness, Ace, etc. And to his credit, Stevie admits his musical limitations. Vinnie is the complete opposite. He thinks he's some songwriting god, a shred guru, and he books grandiose events that he always manages to get sick just before. Stevie is doing SO much more and with so much less, since he doesn't have a Kiss affiliation to bilk. I wasn't saying you lack self-awareness regarding Decline, but they guy in that video certainly does. And I never said it didn't happen that way, despite being staged. That's why it's great - it did happen that way! But the guy took everything way out of context. Decline represented the very bottom of the barrel and the real far-out characters were never going to 'make it' in the music biz in the late 80's. To think they cost him gigs after he put in 10,000 hours? You couldn't even make wine out of those misplaced sour grapes! What you are referring to with shock isn't what I am talking about at all. Those are just style and fashion changes over time. People with piercings or tats are not looking to shock people - those things are tame by today's standards. It is just a change in trends. Like guys with a man bun. I would expect tattoos and piercings to be no big deal now. It actually is the opposite now because it has become so normalized - you are kind of lame if you are tatted up which is why many people are getting them removed. Sure Stevie is a worker, but the thing is - he never should have been signed in the first place and Tuff is an insult to worthier bands that probably should have gotten the break instead. His entire existence is just Atlantic Records singing Tuff because they wanted their own Poison on the label - not because they actually believed they were the next great band like Guns N Roses or something. I can't respect that Stevie was just a Bret Michaels wannabe. In fact, I kind of resent his existence when I know of so many bands that should have been in his place that were just overlooked for whatever reason. You need to keep in mind that even with movies like Decline and Spinal Tap, many rock stars have come out and said that they were much more real than audiences probably realize. So much so, some were actually convinced that Spinal Tap was about specific real life bands - meaning that what happened in Spinal Tap was so common, it could have been about 20 different bands. That these kinds of movies were almost TOO real that what was funny to general public audiences wasn't funny to them because they lived it. Where did I ever say they weren't real? I actually said the exact opposite. The issue - and this is a problem today well beyond music - is people are only comfortable seeing things in black and white, when there is lots of gray area in the middle. They get so entrenched in their opinions, and to achieve confirmation bias, seek the lowest common denominator of the other side. "Hair metal sucked, they were all a bunch of no-talent posers, and I'm glad it died a painful death." The feelings - that it sucked and one is glad it died - I'm ok with, even if my feelings are different. But the no-talent posers part is an opinion that can easily be refuted by looking at musicians other than the bottom-dwellers in Decline. Just look at the top rock albums from 87-88, the time of Decline. In my opinion, those may be the 2 best years in pop/rock history (which as a result created the bottom-feeders). And if we venture to the middle, we find Paul Gilbert, who by age 21 and within blocks of the Sunset Strip, had achieved virtuosity and was teaching at GIT, which attracted students from all over the world. He was signed to an indie label, played to packed clubs in LA, and would soon sign with a major. Or Marty Friedman, who also achieved virtuosity at a young age and would go on to platinum success with Megadeth. Or Jason Becker, a teenage virtuoso who landed a coveted gig with David Lee Roth. So dismissing an entire genre based on Wet Cherri Guy is an enormous logical fallacy. The reality is, most of the clowns in Decline never actually had bands, and were never ever going to get signed or "make it." Look Decline, even staged is 100% true; but it's only depicting about 5% of the music scene, which was thriving nationwide. And I'm not faulting Penelope Spheeris. She was striving to tell the story of one faction of a bustling music scene, and she did an incredible job. But there were SO many other sides. Here's a young Paul Gilbert doing open counseling as a teacher at GIT: Here's Mark Evans from Heavens Edge in 1989, eloquently discussing the difficulties of a live band competing with MTV, detailing the incredible amount of work it took getting signed, and intelligently discussing his goals for the band. And this was 3,000 miles away from the Sunset Strip. In short - Decline is great, but it tells a very small part of a much larger story. Oh, and I once tried to tie my hair in a man bun, but could never get it right! |
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 22, 2024 14:35:50 GMT -5
What you are referring to with shock isn't what I am talking about at all. Those are just style and fashion changes over time. People with piercings or tats are not looking to shock people - those things are tame by today's standards. It is just a change in trends. Like guys with a man bun. I would expect tattoos and piercings to be no big deal now. It actually is the opposite now because it has become so normalized - you are kind of lame if you are tatted up which is why many people are getting them removed. Sure Stevie is a worker, but the thing is - he never should have been signed in the first place and Tuff is an insult to worthier bands that probably should have gotten the break instead. His entire existence is just Atlantic Records singing Tuff because they wanted their own Poison on the label - not because they actually believed they were the next great band like Guns N Roses or something. I can't respect that Stevie was just a Bret Michaels wannabe. In fact, I kind of resent his existence when I know of so many bands that should have been in his place that were just overlooked for whatever reason. You need to keep in mind that even with movies like Decline and Spinal Tap, many rock stars have come out and said that they were much more real than audiences probably realize. So much so, some were actually convinced that Spinal Tap was about specific real life bands - meaning that what happened in Spinal Tap was so common, it could have been about 20 different bands. That these kinds of movies were almost TOO real that what was funny to general public audiences wasn't funny to them because they lived it. Where did I ever say they weren't real? I actually said the exact opposite. The issue - and this is a problem today well beyond music - is people are only comfortable seeing things in black and white, when there is lots of gray area in the middle. They get so entrenched in their opinions, and to achieve confirmation bias, seek the lowest common denominator of the other side. "Hair metal sucked, they were all a bunch of no-talent posers, and I'm glad it died a painful death." The feelings - that it sucked and one is glad it died - I'm ok with, even if my feelings are different. But the no-talent posers part is an opinion that can easily be refuted by looking at musicians other than the bottom-dwellers in Decline. Just look at the top rock albums from 87-88, the time of Decline. In my opinion, those may be the 2 best years in pop/rock history (which as a result created the bottom-feeders). And if we venture to the middle, we find Paul Gilbert, who by age 21 and within blocks of the Sunset Strip, had achieved virtuosity and was teaching at GIT, which attracted students from all over the world. He was signed to an indie label, played to packed clubs in LA, and would soon sign with a major. Or Marty Friedman, who also achieved virtuosity at a young age and would go on to platinum success with Megadeth. Or Jason Becker, a teenage virtuoso who landed a coveted gig with David Lee Roth. So dismissing an entire genre based on Wet Cherri Guy is an enormous logical fallacy. The reality is, most of the clowns in Decline never actually had bands, and were never ever going to get signed or "make it." Look Decline, even staged is 100% true; but it's only depicting about 5% of the music scene, which was thriving nationwide. And I'm not faulting Penelope Spheeris. She was striving to tell the story of one faction of a bustling music scene, and she did an incredible job. But there were SO many other sides. Here's a young Paul Gilbert doing open counseling as a teacher at GIT: Here's Mark Evans from Heavens Edge in 1989, eloquently discussing the difficulties of a live band competing with MTV, detailing the incredible amount of work it took getting signed, and intelligently discussing his goals for the band. And this was 3,000 miles away from the Sunset Strip. In short - Decline is great, but it tells a very small part of a much larger story. Oh, and I once tried to tie my hair in a man bun, but could never get it right! I don't think it is fair to take the 6 minute portion of the discussion and think that covers the entire 2 hour discussion that you haven't watched. Again, Peter is a hard rock/metal fan as are the rest of the panel - they love the music. If you are going to add your commentary on something, I think it's important that you watch or read something in it's entirety to get the full context. I mean how could you not know that these are hard rock/metal fans on the panel? Peter's only position and he is not entirely wrong - that hair metal was kind of bullshit. Style over substance in many cases. For a "serious" musician that he may view himself to be, I can understand his position. I am sure he is not talking about Paul Gilbert/Shrapnel types either, but the Poisons, Warrants, etc. The sleazy bands on the strip - who were not virtuoso's in any sense of the word and there was far more of that with hair metal in general - than actual respectable musicians when you consider the A to Z of hair metal bands. Sort of like that friend of mine that thought Eddie Van Halen was nothing compared to Pat Matheney. Peter even admits that he is a snob, so I give him credit there. He is just being honest. I am sure KISS fans think people who hate KISS and that it's just basic simple mindless cock rock - are music snobs as well and not appreciating KISS on some higher level that KISS fans think that KISS operates. When people assumed that bands like Mr. Big, Extreme and Winger were just three more cheesy hair bands, fans were always defensive and made the case that the DIFFERENCE with those bands is that they were incredibly talented musicians. That when Metallica made fun of Winger, it was pointed out that musically, Winger were actually far more talented than Metallica - but the actual music Winger played was deemed to be lame. Reb Beach himself thinks Kirk Hammet is a fucking hack on the guitar. So the default mode perception right or wrong is that hair metal was primarily very average musicians and style over substance when you consider the genre and all the bands across the board including the Tuffs of the era. Paul Gilbert, Richie Kotzen and Nuno Bettencourt were exceptions to the rule. Most were probably on the level of the musicians in Decline with maybe more talent with songwriting over musical ability and that's why they got signed or "made it". |
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Post by Mr. Blackwell on Feb 22, 2024 15:35:48 GMT -5
How were Kotzen, Beach, and Bettencourt the "exception" to the rule, and Tuff the "rule," when the three of them were in far bigger bands? Sorry, I don't have an hour and a half to hear these guys (or anyone) bloviate over Decline. I endured 5 minutes since you asked me to in an email. I post at thegearpage.net, a hugely popular guitar forum, with lots of members in their sixties. Their seething hatred for hair metal (disco, as well) is palpable. My belief - is that they hate the music because they can neither play nor write it (same with disco). As such, to confirm their bias, they paint an entire genre with an incredibly wide brush. If we're talking about rock music, hair metal has some of the absolute best guitar solos in rock history, many of which came from the same years as Decline - Wait (White Lion), Superstitious (Europe), Headed For a Heartbreak (Winger), just to name a few. Right now I'm studying/listening to Mozart, to gain an understanding of music from that era. That's what history does - it examines the pinnacle of the art of a given time. What those 'panelists' are doing would essentially be like me telling myself, out of jealousy or whatever, "Music of the late 1700's totally sucked," then to confirm my bias, seeking out the absolute bottom of the barrel music of that era, while completely ignoring Mozart. I've said many times. The sea change in the 90's was necessary, and I was totally into it. But 30+ years later, I acknowledge a lot of excellent music got unfairly dismissed and ridiculed. Which ironically also happened to Mozart! |
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 22, 2024 16:06:30 GMT -5
How were Kotzen, Beach, and Bettencourt the "exception" to the rule, and Tuff the "rule," when the three of them were in far bigger bands? Sorry, I don't have an hour and a half to hear these guys (or anyone) bloviate over Decline. I endured 5 minutes since you asked me to in an email. I post at thegearpage.net, a hugely popular guitar forum, with lots of members in their sixties. Their seething hatred for hair metal (disco, as well) is palpable. My belief - is that they hate the music because they can neither play nor write it (same with disco). As such, to confirm their bias, they paint an entire genre with an incredibly wide brush. If we're talking about rock music, hair metal has some of the absolute best guitar solos in rock history, many of which came from the same years as Decline - Wait (White Lion), Superstitious (Europe), Headed For a Heartbreak (Winger), just to name a few. Right now I'm studying/listening to Mozart, to gain an understanding of music from that era. That's what history does - it examines the pinnacle of the art of a given time. What those 'panelists' are doing would essentially be like me telling myself, out of jealousy or whatever, "Music of the late 1700's totally sucked," then to confirm my bias, seeking out the absolute bottom of the barrel music of that era, while completely ignoring Mozart. I've said many times. The sea change in the 90's was necessary, and I was totally into it. But 30+ years later, I acknowledge a lot of excellent music got unfairly dismissed and ridiculed. Which ironically also happened to Mozart! I said bands like Tuff. Of course Bettencourt, Beach and Kotzen were exceptions to the rule. I don't think you realize the abundance of hair metal bands that existed and were signed at the time. TONS of B, C and D level bands. Many albums that I have. Many bands that should have never been signed as well. There was far more shit than great or good music then if you were exposed to it all like I was when you consider the genre as a whole. I guess you weren't really delving much deeper than the more major bands of the time. You weren't listening to Beau Nasty, Trouble Tribe and Sleeze Beeze, etc. I think you are focusing on the cream of the crop of the era and think that represents the whole hair metal era when in all actuality the examples you gave are just a very small portion of the entire output of hair metal music at the time. There were also talented musicians of the era, but the music was shit - so it cancelled out their musical ability. In hindsight, much of the Shrapnel stuff was garbage. I can't even listen to Kotzen's stuff anymore from that time - he just went so far beyond that as a singer, songwriter and musician. Understandably so. You have to start somewhere. Sure I am not expecting you to watch it all and asked you watch that portion, but your opinion came across like you did watch the whole thing and you were giving an overview of the entire discussion to me. You were speaking in absolutes about how Decline was perceived. That was just one guy and only 6 minutes at that as opposed to other things he said later in the discussion. Just wanted to clarify that. Had you watched it all, there may have been points you completely agreed with regarding Decline. It would probably be good to at least acknowledge with your viewpoint that you are only commenting on the sliver of the discussion that you did watch. They are all hard rock/metal fans. It was just Pete who took issue with the style over substance hair bands of the era, which Decline and the Sunset Strip was primarily all about, so he is actually not wrong in that context. |
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Post by Mr. Blackwell on Feb 22, 2024 17:38:51 GMT -5
But what genre of music is that not the case for? Back when the music business was about actual music, that was always the case. Whether it was prog, punk, disco, new wave, even grunge; once one band made it big, the major label feeding frenzy began. I know you don't listen to thrash, but there were just as many C-level thrash bands. Go look up Megaforce's roster of groups that never made it. But who do we discuss? Metallica, and to a lesser extent, the other three of the so-called Big Four. I can easily make the case the death of hair metal was also the death of better musicianship in rock, from which it never recovered. The reality is, the goofiness was actually being extracted from hair metal, and the template for a less over-the-top image wise, and with more mature lyrics genre of guitar-driven rock was upon us. III Sides to Every Story, Pull, Native Tongue, etc. And remember - these were the guys atop the charts, selling records, and on magazine covers; not Wet Cherri Guy.  And many excellent musicians spoke out about losing work, financial struggles, etc., when the rug was pulled out from under them, including Reb Beach. |
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 22, 2024 18:22:12 GMT -5
But what genre of music is that not the case for? Back when the music business was about actual music, that was always the case. Whether it was prog, punk, disco, new wave, even grunge; once one band made it big, the major label feeding frenzy began. I know you don't listen to thrash, but there were just as many C-level thrash bands. Go look up Megaforce's roster of groups that never made it. But who do we discuss? Metallica, and to a lesser extent, the other three of the so-called Big Four. I can easily make the case the death of hair metal was also the death of better musicianship in rock, from which it never recovered. The reality is, the goofiness was actually being extracted from hair metal, and the template for a less over-the-top image wise, and with more mature lyrics genre of guitar-driven rock was upon us. III Sides to Every Story, Pull, Native Tongue, etc. And remember - these were the guys atop the charts, selling records, and on magazine covers; not Wet Cherri Guy. And many excellent musicians spoke out about losing work, financial struggles, etc., when the rug was pulled out from under them, including Reb Beach. Given that I am incredibly well versed in the endless list of hair bands in the 80's, I can say with certainty that hair metal had an over abundance of shit, mediocrity or just decent bands vs the amount of good, very good and great bands. As someone who has also done a deep dive on A list to D list of 70's bands for example, the quality of music is pretty consistent across the board when comparing to the 80's. This shouldn't be a revelation to you given much of the 80's in every way from movies to TV to music was more about style over substance. The 70's were a far and away greater musical decade in all genres of music over the 80's despite the great music that was made in the 80's as well. Well Wet Cherri Guy was never going to make it despite his instance that he was going to, but plenty of people like him did get signed and contributed greatly to the downfall of the genre. I know you have a soft spot for whatever reason with Heaven's Edge - but they weren't really worthy of being signed if we put on our John Kalodner hats on. They may have been a more promising band than others, but they didn't really have the goods with the album they released and that I bought. A couple of good songs, but Heavens Edge was never going to make the case for a great band that deserves to make it. There was just WAY too many of these bands getting signed and it watered down the quality of the genre overall. General public audiences don't give a fuck about the talent ability of musicians. You do. I do. It's about the songs or what's deemed cool today, but maybe not tomorrow. All these great musicians from the 80's that were now out of work was because the cheesy songs they were playing about partying and sex was no longer deemed cool and people felt that Eddie Vedder and Chris Cornell for example had someone deeper to say with a sea change style of music that was now deemed cool. No one cares if the grunge bands were able to shred like Reb Beach or not. It was about the songs, which is why so many hair bands did their own grunge style albums with deeper lyrics and less musical showing off. |
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Post by Margo Leadbetter on Feb 22, 2024 21:54:08 GMT -5
What’s all that crap got to do with Wolfgang being a fatass?
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 22, 2024 22:02:16 GMT -5
What’s all that crap got to do with Wolfgang being a fatass? I see you are new to forums. Well you see often in a forum discussion thread, topics can shift into an entirely different discussion than was originally intended. It is a similar thing to having real life discussions. Don't worry - it's a learning curve, but you will get the hang of it soon enough. |
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Post by Mr. Blackwell on Feb 22, 2024 22:46:19 GMT -5
But what genre of music is that not the case for? Back when the music business was about actual music, that was always the case. Whether it was prog, punk, disco, new wave, even grunge; once one band made it big, the major label feeding frenzy began. I know you don't listen to thrash, but there were just as many C-level thrash bands. Go look up Megaforce's roster of groups that never made it. But who do we discuss? Metallica, and to a lesser extent, the other three of the so-called Big Four. I can easily make the case the death of hair metal was also the death of better musicianship in rock, from which it never recovered. The reality is, the goofiness was actually being extracted from hair metal, and the template for a less over-the-top image wise, and with more mature lyrics genre of guitar-driven rock was upon us. III Sides to Every Story, Pull, Native Tongue, etc. And remember - these were the guys atop the charts, selling records, and on magazine covers; not Wet Cherri Guy. And many excellent musicians spoke out about losing work, financial struggles, etc., when the rug was pulled out from under them, including Reb Beach. Given that I am incredibly well versed in the endless list of hair bands in the 80's, I can say with certainty that hair metal had an over abundance of shit, mediocrity or just decent bands vs the amount of good, very good and great bands. As someone who has also done a deep dive on A list to D list of 70's bands for example, the quality of music is pretty consistent across the board when comparing to the 80's. This shouldn't be a revelation to you given much of the 80's in every way from movies to TV to music was more about style over substance. The 70's were a far and away greater musical decade in all genres of music over the 80's despite the great music that was made in the 80's as well. Well Wet Cherri Guy was never going to make it despite his instance that he was going to, but plenty of people like him did get signed and contributed greatly to the downfall of the genre. I know you have a soft spot for whatever reason with Heaven's Edge - but they weren't really worthy of being signed if we put on our John Kalodner hats on. They may have been a more promising band than others, but they didn't really have the goods with the album they released and that I bought. A couple of good songs, but Heavens Edge was never going to make the case for a great band that deserves to make it. There was just WAY too many of these bands getting signed and it watered down the quality of the genre overall. General public audiences don't give a fuck about the talent ability of musicians. You do. I do. It's about the songs or what's deemed cool today, but maybe not tomorrow. All these great musicians from the 80's that were now out of work was because the cheesy songs they were playing about partying and sex was no longer deemed cool and people felt that Eddie Vedder and Chris Cornell for example had someone deeper to say with a sea change style of music that was now deemed cool. No one cares if the grunge bands were able to shred like Reb Beach or not. It was about the songs, which is why so many hair bands did their own grunge style albums with deeper lyrics and less musical showing off. I love both the 70's and 80's and see no reason to pit them against one another. For general rock, I give the edge to the 70's; for harder rock/metal, it's the 80's by a landslide. Pop, soul, and dance could go either way. I've said repeatedly I was on board with the sea change, and felt ready for it as far back as 1990, when I was underwhelmed by Whitesnake live. I never claimed Heavens Edge was a great band; but they were one of the real groups who were actually making legitimate headway toward getting signed, which they eventually did. All the clowns in Decline were never serious about music. And Reggie Wu was an excellent guitarist. They had their act together incredibly well - original songs, their look, even choreography. Competing with that was no fun. It wasn't like Wet Cherri set the bar for club bands. I wouldn't be surprised if they never even played a gig. Today people will click on anything; it's free. But when people actually spent their hard-earned money on recordings, talent and musicianship absolutely mattered. Go watch the "Making of the Classic Albums" series on Steely Dan - Aja, Fleetwood Mac - Rumours, Def Leppard - Hysteria, Aerosmith - Pump, Metallica - Black, etc. Those albums cost fortunes to make, and endless hours in studios. It wasn't pointless that labels and producers were spending millions of dollars and thousands of hours creating them. The bottom line being, for the records to sell, they needed to be as top-notch as possible. We cannot view the past through a modern lens. Do you think in 1988, Cherry Medicine would've even seen the light of day? The vocal is beyond amateurish, the lyrics sound like a kindergartener wrote them, the riffs are borrowed from obvious sources, the solo is as stock as they come, etc. Sure in 2024, " audiences don't give a fuck about the talent ability of musicians," to quote your post. It would have been laughed out of the room if even brought to the preproduction sessions for any of the aforementioned albums. So yes, I'm stuck in the past, but musicianship and songwriting will always matter to me. Oh and back on topic - Meatloaf was also overweight! |
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Post by Joma on Feb 22, 2024 23:13:40 GMT -5
Given that I am incredibly well versed in the endless list of hair bands in the 80's, I can say with certainty that hair metal had an over abundance of shit, mediocrity or just decent bands vs the amount of good, very good and great bands. As someone who has also done a deep dive on A list to D list of 70's bands for example, the quality of music is pretty consistent across the board when comparing to the 80's. This shouldn't be a revelation to you given much of the 80's in every way from movies to TV to music was more about style over substance. The 70's were a far and away greater musical decade in all genres of music over the 80's despite the great music that was made in the 80's as well. Well Wet Cherri Guy was never going to make it despite his instance that he was going to, but plenty of people like him did get signed and contributed greatly to the downfall of the genre. I know you have a soft spot for whatever reason with Heaven's Edge - but they weren't really worthy of being signed if we put on our John Kalodner hats on. They may have been a more promising band than others, but they didn't really have the goods with the album they released and that I bought. A couple of good songs, but Heavens Edge was never going to make the case for a great band that deserves to make it. There was just WAY too many of these bands getting signed and it watered down the quality of the genre overall. General public audiences don't give a fuck about the talent ability of musicians. You do. I do. It's about the songs or what's deemed cool today, but maybe not tomorrow. All these great musicians from the 80's that were now out of work was because the cheesy songs they were playing about partying and sex was no longer deemed cool and people felt that Eddie Vedder and Chris Cornell for example had someone deeper to say with a sea change style of music that was now deemed cool. No one cares if the grunge bands were able to shred like Reb Beach or not. It was about the songs, which is why so many hair bands did their own grunge style albums with deeper lyrics and less musical showing off. I love both the 70's and 80's and see no reason to pit them against one another. For general rock, I give the edge to the 70's; for harder rock/metal, it's the 80's by a landslide. Pop, soul, and dance could go either way. I've said repeatedly I was on board with the sea change, and felt ready for it as far back as 1990, when I was underwhelmed by Whitesnake live. I never claimed Heavens Edge was a great band; but they were one of the real groups who were actually making legitimate headway toward getting signed, which they eventually did. All the clowns in Decline were never serious about music. And Reggie Wu was an excellent guitarist. They had their act together incredibly well - original songs, their look, even choreography. Competing with that was no fun. It wasn't like Wet Cherri set the bar for club bands. I wouldn't be surprised if they never even played a gig. Today people will click on anything; it's free. But when people actually spent their hard-earned money on recordings, talent and musicianship absolutely mattered. Go watch the "Making of the Classic Albums" series on Steely Dan - Aja, Fleetwood Mac - Rumours, Def Leppard - Hysteria, Aerosmith - Pump, Metallica - Black, etc. Those albums cost fortunes to make, and endless hours in studios. It wasn't pointless that labels and producers were spending millions of dollars and thousands of hours creating them. The bottom line being, for the records to sell, they needed to be as top-notch as possible. We cannot view the past through a modern lens. Do you think in 1988, Cherry Medicine would've even seen the light of day? The vocal is beyond amateurish, the lyrics sound like a kindergartener wrote them, the riffs are borrowed from obvious sources, the solo is as stock as they come, etc. Sure in 2024, " audiences don't give a fuck about the talent ability of musicians," to quote your post. It would have been laughed out of the room if even brought to the preproduction sessions for any of the aforementioned albums. So yes, I'm stuck in the past, but musicianship and songwriting will always matter to me. Oh and back on topic - Meatloaf was also overweight! To be fair, Cherry Medicine's vocals would not have sounded anything like that in 1988...studio magic and Ace could sing 100 times better back then... Would it have been a hit? Probably not...but the song woulda kicked ass... |
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 22, 2024 23:18:09 GMT -5
I love both the 70's and 80's and see no reason to pit them against one another. For general rock, I give the edge to the 70's; for harder rock/metal, it's the 80's by a landslide. Pop, soul, and dance could go either way. I've said repeatedly I was on board with the sea change, and felt ready for it as far back as 1990, when I was underwhelmed by Whitesnake live. I never claimed Heavens Edge was a great band; but they were one of the real groups who were actually making legitimate headway toward getting signed, which they eventually did. All the clowns in Decline were never serious about music. And Reggie Wu was an excellent guitarist. They had their act together incredibly well - original songs, their look, even choreography. Competing with that was no fun. It wasn't like Wet Cherri set the bar for club bands. I wouldn't be surprised if they never even played a gig. Today people will click on anything; it's free. But when people actually spent their hard-earned money on recordings, talent and musicianship absolutely mattered. Go watch the "Making of the Classic Albums" series on Steely Dan - Aja, Fleetwood Mac - Rumours, Def Leppard - Hysteria, Aerosmith - Pump, Metallica - Black, etc. Those albums cost fortunes to make, and endless hours in studios. It wasn't pointless that labels and producers were spending millions of dollars and thousands of hours creating them. The bottom line being, for the records to sell, they needed to be as top-notch as possible. We cannot view the past through a modern lens. Do you think in 1988, Cherry Medicine would've even seen the light of day? The vocal is beyond amateurish, the lyrics sound like a kindergartener wrote them, the riffs are borrowed from obvious sources, the solo is as stock as they come, etc. Sure in 2024, " audiences don't give a fuck about the talent ability of musicians," to quote your post. It would have been laughed out of the room if even brought to the preproduction sessions for any of the aforementioned albums. So yes, I'm stuck in the past, but musicianship and songwriting will always matter to me. Oh and back on topic - Meatloaf was also overweight! To be fair, Cherry Medicine's vocals would not have sounded anything like that in 1988... I actually think Cherry Medicine could have been on an earlier Ace album. I mean this song isn't THAT far removed from Frehley's Comet stuff - which one could be critical of back then too. Especially the Second Sighting album. We know going in that Ace has his songwriting limitations, but it works for him. |
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