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Post by Joma on Feb 22, 2024 23:24:22 GMT -5
Well, that one dude on FAQ would rather whack off to weird Ace stories than listen to Ace presently....wait, can he lurk and read about his weird fetishes here? Oops...Sorry 78 Guy. Hope that's not a boner kill the next time you tell a weird ass, pornographic story about Ace.
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 22, 2024 23:47:25 GMT -5
Well, that one dude on FAQ would rather whack off to weird Ace stories than listen to Ace presently....wait, can he lurk and read about his weird fetishes here? Oops...Sorry 78 Guy. Hope that's not a boner kill the next time you tell a weird ass, pornographic story about Ace. I know we differ on Spaceman, but a lot of people didn't like that album. This album is clearly above that, so one way or another - Ace has released a stronger album. So it is ridiculous to claim that he made the worst album ever, when he actually surpassed himself.
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 24, 2024 12:56:20 GMT -5
Given that I am incredibly well versed in the endless list of hair bands in the 80's, I can say with certainty that hair metal had an over abundance of shit, mediocrity or just decent bands vs the amount of good, very good and great bands. As someone who has also done a deep dive on A list to D list of 70's bands for example, the quality of music is pretty consistent across the board when comparing to the 80's. This shouldn't be a revelation to you given much of the 80's in every way from movies to TV to music was more about style over substance. The 70's were a far and away greater musical decade in all genres of music over the 80's despite the great music that was made in the 80's as well. Well Wet Cherri Guy was never going to make it despite his instance that he was going to, but plenty of people like him did get signed and contributed greatly to the downfall of the genre. I know you have a soft spot for whatever reason with Heaven's Edge - but they weren't really worthy of being signed if we put on our John Kalodner hats on. They may have been a more promising band than others, but they didn't really have the goods with the album they released and that I bought. A couple of good songs, but Heavens Edge was never going to make the case for a great band that deserves to make it. There was just WAY too many of these bands getting signed and it watered down the quality of the genre overall. General public audiences don't give a fuck about the talent ability of musicians. You do. I do. It's about the songs or what's deemed cool today, but maybe not tomorrow. All these great musicians from the 80's that were now out of work was because the cheesy songs they were playing about partying and sex was no longer deemed cool and people felt that Eddie Vedder and Chris Cornell for example had someone deeper to say with a sea change style of music that was now deemed cool. No one cares if the grunge bands were able to shred like Reb Beach or not. It was about the songs, which is why so many hair bands did their own grunge style albums with deeper lyrics and less musical showing off. I love both the 70's and 80's and see no reason to pit them against one another. For general rock, I give the edge to the 70's; for harder rock/metal, it's the 80's by a landslide. Pop, soul, and dance could go either way. I've said repeatedly I was on board with the sea change, and felt ready for it as far back as 1990, when I was underwhelmed by Whitesnake live. I never claimed Heavens Edge was a great band; but they were one of the real groups who were actually making legitimate headway toward getting signed, which they eventually did. All the clowns in Decline were never serious about music. And Reggie Wu was an excellent guitarist. They had their act together incredibly well - original songs, their look, even choreography. Competing with that was no fun. It wasn't like Wet Cherri set the bar for club bands. I wouldn't be surprised if they never even played a gig. Today people will click on anything; it's free. But when people actually spent their hard-earned money on recordings, talent and musicianship absolutely mattered. Go watch the "Making of the Classic Albums" series on Steely Dan - Aja, Fleetwood Mac - Rumours, Def Leppard - Hysteria, Aerosmith - Pump, Metallica - Black, etc. Those albums cost fortunes to make, and endless hours in studios. It wasn't pointless that labels and producers were spending millions of dollars and thousands of hours creating them. The bottom line being, for the records to sell, they needed to be as top-notch as possible. We cannot view the past through a modern lens. Do you think in 1988, Cherry Medicine would've even seen the light of day? The vocal is beyond amateurish, the lyrics sound like a kindergartener wrote them, the riffs are borrowed from obvious sources, the solo is as stock as they come, etc. Sure in 2024, " audiences don't give a fuck about the talent ability of musicians," to quote your post. It would have been laughed out of the room if even brought to the preproduction sessions for any of the aforementioned albums. So yes, I'm stuck in the past, but musicianship and songwriting will always matter to me. Oh and back on topic - Meatloaf was also overweight! It is not about pitting one against the other, but all things in life have been better in certain decades than others. This would apply to 70's music over the 80's. The highs are MUCH higher in the 70's than the 80's. That doesn't negate the 80's, but the 70's were just better overall and across the board with many music genres. That is what makes it exceptional - because all genres were just killing it when there was a decline in the 80's in many ways. I am not saying that you said Heaven's Edge was this great band, but you have brought them up numerous time in our discussions, so I assumed you felt that they deserved much better than they got. Heaven's Edge were featured in a documentary themselves that was never completed, but they did release a trailer. I am sure Philly had their Decline level of clowns trying to make it too like on the Sunset Strip. All Ages Sunday was sort of their version of Decline. Things cost in the 80's what they cost. From producers fees to studio time to everything in between. It's not like they COULD have made a professional sounding album for 10K, but preferred to spend 800K or more. You can hire Bob Ezrin and even Mutt Lange for MUCH less now than they would charge in the 80's. Everyone's fees have been greatly reduced, studios have gone out of business and everyone is just trying to make whatever money they can today. Have you reduced your teaching fees from many years past? General audiences didn't care about musicianship in the 90's - never mind 2024. It was cared more about in the 80's, but with the sea change in music - musical ability was only really cared about by a very small demographic who were still showing up to the sausage fests of G3, etc. Keep in mind as well that many of those 80's albums that had big producers and budgets - the band themselves weren't that great as musicians - be it Poison with Fairbairn or Warrant with Beau Hill. I certainly like Def Leppard, but I wouldn't put them in the category of great musicians or virtuoso's. In fact, I think Phil Collen ruined that band, but that's a whole other discussion that we have had before. I would say Pete Willis was probably the most talented member they had and he was fired.
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Post by Mr. Blackwell on Feb 24, 2024 14:38:52 GMT -5
I love both the 70's and 80's, and have been addicted to The Midnight Special (70's), who have been posting new episodes every Friday night. Last night's was very rock-centric, with Procol Harum, Humble Pie,Mott the Hoople.
All were excellent, but fast forward ten years, when there was a similar late night live music show. I recall seeing Ratt, Night Ranger, Dio.
As I'm not as much a fan of blues-based music, I'd choose the 80's. Ratt had the more pop-based hooks and more intricate lead playing, as did Night Ranger.
But again, both are great. It may be fun debating Bach vs. Mozart, but it's ultimately pointless; both are great.
I brought up Heavens Edge because of that one panelist's ludicrous claim about losing gigs after putting in 10K hours because of the bozos on the Sunset Strip. It simply didn't work that way.
Heavens Edge was thousands of miles away, yet had major label caliber songs, a highly polished live presentation, professional management (Cohen/Goldfarb), FM radio support (Ray Koob, WMMR), and a sizable regional following.
That is what bands were competing against, not all the bottom-feeders mindlessly parading around the Sunset Strip, who probably didn't even have bands. That's why it came off as sour grapes to me, as well as posters at Sludge.
And yes, I wish All Ages Sundays had been completed. It would have given a great glimpse at other elements of the rock scene at the time, which had swept the nation. Houston even had a cable access show devoted to its own scene, called Metallurgy. The woman who hosted it has posted many episodes, which are great time capsules.
BTW, drummers Bobby Rock and Blas Elias, as well as shred maestro Rusty Cooley all got their start out of Houston's scene. Pariah from Austin, whose members found high profile gigs, was also a part of it, as was Pantera. So let's put to rest this crazy notion about a 'good' musician being displaced by the Sunset Strip hangers-on. It simply wasn't the case.
As for production budgets let's forget about dollars. Yes, technology is awesome; but that has nothing to do with why all these new rock records are made on the cheap. On the one hand, for the small number of fans that like this stuff, it's great. On the other, it has flooded the market with professional sounding, but otherwise under-produced content.
I am stuck in the past in that when I think "producer," 99% of what I'm thinking is music, and 1% audio gear. You can buy an inexpensive amp modeler at Guitar Center, plug it into your laptop, and have a pro level sound. Are you now a "producer," like Jizzy Pearl, Steve Brown, etc.?
Watch Bruce Fairbairn making Pump, or Mutt Lange making Hysteria. They rarely, if ever, got into the minutia of recording gear. They had their engineers do that, which nowadays many equate with production.
I have screenshots of Mike Shipley posting at Gearspace. He said for Hysteria, Mutt wanted "commercial distortion," so the guitars would sound rock, but still fit on pop radio. But it was Shipley and the engineers who figured it. Tony Platt has discussed the same thing working with Mutt with AC/DC, Def Leppard on Full in Bloom and said the same thing.
So let's put aside budgets. How many hours do you think were spent recording and developing Janie's Got a Gun? Listen to that with headphones; it's a masterpiece.
Most of what these newly-anointed "producers" are creating are demos that likely would have never seen the light of day in 1988, but gussied up sonically due to modern technology.
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Post by Margo Leadbetter on Feb 24, 2024 14:55:37 GMT -5
Yeah, digital recording has made it so anyone can record an album for peanuts. So the barrier of entry is so much lower, so the level of garbage that would have never been released back when albums cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to make is through the roof.
Exactly the same deal with TV shows. The reason why “reality” TV is so ubiquitous now is that it costs pennies to make compared to real shows with scripts and sets and everything else needed to make it.
The race to the bottom is real.
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 24, 2024 16:20:22 GMT -5
I love both the 70's and 80's, and have been addicted to The Midnight Special (70's), who have been posting new episodes every Friday night. Last night's was very rock-centric, with Procol Harum, Humble Pie,Mott the Hoople. All were excellent, but fast forward ten years, when there was a similar late night live music show. I recall seeing Ratt, Night Ranger, Dio. As I'm not as much a fan of blues-based music, I'd choose the 80's. Ratt had the more pop-based hooks and more intricate lead playing, as did Night Ranger. But again, both are great. It may be fun debating Bach vs. Mozart, but it's ultimately pointless; both are great. I brought up Heavens Edge because of that one panelist's ludicrous claim about losing gigs after putting in 10K hours because of the bozos on the Sunset Strip. It simply didn't work that way. Heavens Edge was thousands of miles away, yet had major label caliber songs, a highly polished live presentation, professional management (Cohen/Goldfarb), FM radio support (Ray Koob, WMMR), and a sizable regional following. That is what bands were competing against, not all the bottom-feeders mindlessly parading around the Sunset Strip, who probably didn't even have bands. That's why it came off as sour grapes to me, as well as posters at Sludge. And yes, I wish All Ages Sundays had been completed. It would have given a great glimpse at other elements of the rock scene at the time, which had swept the nation. Houston even had a cable access show devoted to its own scene, called Metallurgy. The woman who hosted it has posted many episodes, which are great time capsules. BTW, drummers Bobby Rock and Blas Elias, as well as shred maestro Rusty Cooley all got their start out of Houston's scene. Pariah from Austin, whose members found high profile gigs, was also a part of it, as was Pantera. So let's put to rest this crazy notion about a 'good' musician being displaced by the Sunset Strip hangers-on. It simply wasn't the case. As for production budgets let's forget about dollars. Yes, technology is awesome; but that has nothing to do with why all these new rock records are made on the cheap. On the one hand, for the small number of fans that like this stuff, it's great. On the other, it has flooded the market with professional sounding, but otherwise under-produced content. I am stuck in the past in that when I think "producer," 99% of what I'm thinking is music, and 1% audio gear. You can buy an inexpensive amp modeler at Guitar Center, plug it into your laptop, and have a pro level sound. Are you now a "producer," like Jizzy Pearl, Steve Brown, etc.? Watch Bruce Fairbairn making Pump, or Mutt Lange making Hysteria. They rarely, if ever, got into the minutia of recording gear. They had their engineers do that, which nowadays many equate with production. I have screenshots of Mike Shipley posting at Gearspace. He said for Hysteria, Mutt wanted "commercial distortion," so the guitars would sound rock, but still fit on pop radio. But it was Shipley and the engineers who figured it. Tony Platt has discussed the same thing working with Mutt with AC/DC, Def Leppard on Full in Bloom and said the same thing. So let's put aside budgets. How many hours do you think were spent recording and developing Janie's Got a Gun? Listen to that with headphones; it's a masterpiece. Most of what these newly-anointed "producers" are creating are demos that likely would have never seen the light of day in 1988, but gussied up sonically due to modern technology. There were many pop focused hard rock bands drenched in hooks in the 70's - the Foreigners, The Journeys, The Bostons, The Cheap Tricks with guitar heroes of that era and TONS of A to C level bands in between, but sure if you prefer bands with a hair metal component added, then fine. I disagree with your position on that panelist and even the Sludge response. Look let's be honest here, you were more likely to get signed if you were a decent band with pretty boy members than you were if you were newcomer Al Di Meola looking to start a hard rock band in 1988. I know. I had many of these albums and fell for it all. Yes, there were very talented musicians and amazing bands in the 80's, but the hair metal era overall and the Sunset Strip especially - was a vast majority of style over substance. So if the panelist was in some "serious musicians" prog hard rock band for example - it is understandable why he may be ignored over say garbage like Tuff. It is also understandable why he may be bitter about that. I really think despite growing up in that era, you really only have a surface level understanding of the plethora of bands that existed then that were signed. You bought what everyone else was buying and what was popular with the general public with minimal exceptions. You weren't venturing DEEP into many B, C and D level bands - many of which did have major label deals. If your focus is really only on Ratt, Poison, Whitesnake, Def Leppard, Dokken, Motley, Warrant, Bon Jovi and a few other bands that everyone knows, that doesn't really tell the whole story about the quality of hair metal music in the 80's. I am speaking from a perspective of knowing all the lesser bands as well - many who should have never been signed. If we acknowledge all the bands from the era A to Z. The bad outweighs the good. Just because you can mention a Saigon Kick or some other band that is more talented or deeper creatively than most - they were the exception to the rule. As for the Sludge response - these are people still living in the past on a forum that caters to hair metal music and it may be the only music they still listen to today, so they have a bias from the get go over someone being critical of the era. That would be like a panel talking about KISS and shitting on them. Of course people on KISSFAQ are going to call out the panelists. You are not going to find much objectivity on KISSFAQ or Sludge. They are both drinking the kool-aid. I am certainly not saying that there wasn't good music from Philly. I dug Tangier, Cinderella and while not a big fan of Britny Fox, I really dug Dean Davidson's follow up band Blackeyed Susan. I am just saying that had All Ages Sunday been completed, I am sure we would have seen the bad bands or similar Decline losers that tried to make it among that bands that eventually got deals. Like Stevie did per his Decline appearance. I wasn't talking about gear at all. But the costs of studio time and the fees of the producers and engineers. You take that all away and you could make an album for 10K to 20K back then. Some bands without a budget did exactly that back in the 80's and 90's and the albums are great. You do realize that many of the 80's and 90's producers are still producing albums now and they use the same process for production now as they did then. If Bruce Fairbairn was still alive - he may still be working too and say producing the new Greta Van Fleet album. He would demand from them the same he did from Aerosmith. Do you really think when Mutt Lange produces more recent stuff - that he doesn't have the same mentality to get the best out of a band as he did back then? I think you are so out of touch with music today, that you don't even realize that many of your producer heroes are still working and either producing newer bands or producing new albums from long time bands. Despite your view of music today, there really is great music still being made now - but of course also a ton of shit. Exactly like the 90's and beyond. There is just more volume now, because everyone and their dog can make an album in the internet age. So you need to have a better filer to find the great music today that brings me as much joy as music did in the 70's and 80's. It's sad actually that you can't appreciate ANY new music today at all. And no, new music TO YOU from 1932 doesn't count.
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Post by Mr. Blackwell on Feb 24, 2024 17:22:09 GMT -5
If your focus is really only on Ratt, Poison, Whitesnake, Def Leppard, Dokken, Motley, Warrant, Bon Jovi and a few other bands that everyone knows, that doesn't really tell the whole story about the quality of hair metal music in the 80's.
This is your point I'm completely at odds with. Why would anyone look at the bottom of the barrel to get an understanding of any era of music? And that is an enormous sampling size of quality bands to accept that level as a norm, especially with others not even mrntioned.
Should I toss out my Mozart CDs and dig up the forgotten composers of his era to get a true understanding of how much music sucked then? That would be crazy.
And do you really think there weren't major label signed bands from the 70's we've completely forgotten? There may have been more in the late 80's, but at that time, guitar-driven rock was dominating the charts, the economy was booming, MTV was massive, so of course everyone wanted to join the party. That really is what Decline is all about; it's not some all-encompassing documentary on the music business in the 80's, like that panelist was alleging. Far from it.
Again, let's forget about dollars and budgets; let's talk hours. How many hours do you think Steve and Ace spent on Cherry Medicine? That's basically a demo with lots of borrowed ideas, not-major-label quality lead vocal, but polished on Pro Tools.
I imagine there is some decent music being released, but at this stage, it's all mostly derivative. And secondly, there's far too much of it to sift through. The paradigm is broken but no one cares about fixing it, so the floodgates continue. As Margo.stated, the race to the bottom is well under way, and competition is fierce.
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 24, 2024 17:48:28 GMT -5
If your focus is really only on Ratt, Poison, Whitesnake, Def Leppard, Dokken, Motley, Warrant, Bon Jovi and a few other bands that everyone knows, that doesn't really tell the whole story about the quality of hair metal music in the 80's. This is your point I'm completely at odds with. Why would anyone look at the bottom of the barrel to get an understanding of any era of music? And that is an enormous sampling size of quality bands to accept that level as a norm, especially with others not even mrntioned. Should I toss out my Mozart CDs and dig up the forgotten composers of his era to get a true understanding of how much music sucked then? That would be crazy. And do you really think there weren't major label signed bands from the 70's we've completely forgotten? There may have been more in the late 80's, but at that time, guitar-driven rock was dominating the charts, the economy was booming, MTV was massive, so of course everyone wanted to join the party. That really is what Decline is all about; it's not some all-encompassing documentary on the music business in the 80's, like that panelist was alleging. Far from it. Again, let's forget about dollars and budgets; let's talk hours. How many hours do you think Steve and Ace spent on Cherry Medicine? That's basically a demo with lots of borrowed ideas, not-major-label quality lead vocal, but polished on Pro Tools. I imagine there is some decent music being released, but at this stage, it's all mostly derivative. And secondly, there's far too much of it to sift through. The paradigm is broken but no one cares about fixing it, so the floodgates continue. As Margo.stated, the race to the bottom is well under way, and competition is fierce. If you are going to talk about the entirety of anything - you can't just focus on a small percentage of the absolute best or most popular of that thing. Many hair metal fans love those lower tier bands or what you might deem bottom of the barrel and to them - they were the best of the era and should have been huge over the Bon Jovi's and Def Leppard's. You know this from spending any time on Sludge and the bands they celebrate. If where you live had an abundance of pizza joints, but they are mostly all very mediocre with a couple that are excellent, you wouldn't say your city is known for great pizza. You might say to a tourist that there is a lot of crap pizza here, but if you want great pizza - go to these SPECIFIC places that are the exception to the majority. Many great bands have been forgotten from the 70's. Some great bands weren't even appreciated during the 70's, but the consistent quality level is like night and day between bands from the 70's vs the 80's. There wasn't remotely the amount of bad bands during the 70's as there were in the 80's signed to major label deals. If you got a deal in the 70's - chances are you were damn good like say a Montrose, but the public liking you was something else. I don't see Ace's new music being that far removed from what he did in the 80's with A&R and big label involvement. Are you really suggesting a song like this is so far and away above Cherry Medicine? I don't see how you can listen to this song and say yep - this is an entirely higher level of quality songwriting and performance due to how things were done in the 80's vs now.
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Post by Margo Leadbetter on Feb 26, 2024 4:22:04 GMT -5
Not much of a song but at least that sounds like real guitars, real singing and it’s not brickwalled to shit.
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 26, 2024 11:50:18 GMT -5
Not much of a song but at least that sounds like real guitars, real singing and it’s not brickwalled to shit. The song is actually worse and you could also say that about a ton of albums if you compared them from 70's and 80's recordings vs the last 20 years.
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 26, 2024 13:33:10 GMT -5
To bring it back to Wolfgang.
I am entirely convinced that had Wolfgang embraced the 50 year old+ Van Halen fans on social media, played VH songs in concert and happily accepted the gushing of his father that fans were spewing on him daily, they would have loved Wolfgang and his weight wouldn't be much of an issue at all.
The fat jokes and other negative comments is just their bully response because they didn't get what they wanted from him.
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