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Post by Hey Man on Mar 30, 2024 11:22:30 GMT -5
First time creating a song together and it is a pretty fucking cool song. Blackwell will hate it and won't be able to make it to the end.  |
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Post by Mr. Blackwell on Mar 30, 2024 13:10:39 GMT -5
I've never been a big fan of either Vai or Satch, so why would this be any different? They are both great at what they do, but I don't find either of them particularly interesting musically.
I've always been upfront about what appeals to me, and in no particular order: first and foremost, rhythm/groove.
Second, melody. I actually like hearing chops, but not for the sake of showing off. As part of melodic development, 'shredding' can be effective. Just listen to Mozart; love it.
Third, harmony/chords. I don't even mind stock chord progressions, if there are a few surprises.
When I discovered smooth jazz ( after its heyday), I found my personal sweet spot. Like the 80's pop music now referred to as Sophisti-pop, it's music that on the surface sounds instantly accessible and appealing.
But beneath the surface is stellar musical composition and exquisite musicianship.
If you check out the interview/intro of this clip from 1987, this sums up my tastes perfectly. And when they play the tune's main theme on two acoustic guitars - to my ears, that is on a different stratosphere than anything Vai or Satch has ever done, including their latest paint-by-numbers offering.
Mr. Chow has a silky, syncopated groove, sophisticated chord changes, and a unique, angular melody.
Again, not knocking Vai or Satch. They're just not my cup of tea, and this is musically on another planet to my ears.
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Post by Hey Man on Mar 30, 2024 13:37:10 GMT -5
I've never been a big fan of either Vai or Satch, so why would this be any different? They are both great at what they do, but I don't find either of them particularly interesting musically. I've always been upfront about what appeals to me, and in no particular order: first and foremost, rhythm/groove. Second, melody. I actually like hearing chops, but not for the sake of showing off. As part of melodic development, 'shredding' can be effective. Just listen to Mozart; love it. Third, harmony/chords. I don't even mind stock chord progressions, if there are a few surprises. When I discovered smooth jazz ( after its heyday), I found my personal sweet spot. Like the 80's pop music now referred to as Sophisti-pop, it's music that on the surface sounds instantly accessible and appealing. But beneath the surface is stellar musical composition and exquisite musicianship. If you check out the interview/intro of this clip from 1987, this sums up my tastes perfectly. And when they play the tune's main theme on two acoustic guitars - to my ears, that is on a different stratosphere than anything Vai or Satch has ever done, including their latest paint-by-numbers offering. Mr. Chow has a silky, syncopated groove, sophisticated chord changes, and a unique, angular melody. Again, not knocking Vai or Satch. They're just not my cup of tea, and this is musically on another planet to my ears. I get all that, but this is objectively really good for what it is and what they have been famous for. People have wanted to hear them together for decades on a song together and this is not a disappointment. It would be great in 1989. It is great now. I find it hard to believe that you can't listen to this and at least be able to talk about it in an intelligent way as a great guitarist yourself to still say that while it isn't your cup of tea for your own listening pleasure at home, it still is very good. I can do that with all sorts of things in life - not for me in big doses, but it is very good in a small dose. Did you actually listen to it? |
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Post by Mr. Blackwell on Mar 30, 2024 15:23:48 GMT -5
I tried, but the song meanders and is un-focused. I don't hear a song in there at all, just a bunch of riffs pasted together for five+ minutes. It doesn't help that they look completely ridiculous. Did you listen to the Acoustic Alchemy tune? Can you not hear the night and day difference in musical composition? That guitar solo thread made me think a lot of the musical gestures I (and millions of others, decades ago) find so appealing, either don't register with you or you don't care about. Did you even listen to any of the artists now labeled Sophisti-pop? That is the problem I was referring to in the Cheryl Crow thread. That people are no longer capable of hearing musicality. I hear pop music of the 80's, most of which I heard at the roller rink, high school functions, MTV, etc. I loved it then, but had no idea how exquisitely written it was. I hear it now and am blown away by it. I hear current popular music, and in terms of composition, 80's music is closer to Mozart. Yet despite this obvious dumbing down, I'm constantly being told how great music today is? I can't see how anyone who actually heard the music can't hear the difference. Quite frankly, you'd have an easier time convincing me the earth is flat.  |
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Post by Hey Man on Mar 30, 2024 16:16:56 GMT -5
I tried, but the song meanders and is un-focused. I don't hear a song in there at all, just a bunch of riffs pasted together for five+ minutes. It doesn't help that they look completely ridiculous. Did you listen to the Acoustic Alchemy tune? Can you not hear the night and day difference in musical composition? That guitar solo thread made me think a lot of the musical gestures I (and millions of others, decades ago) find so appealing, either don't register with you or you don't care about. Did you even listen to any of the artists now labeled Sophisti-pop? That is the problem I was referring to in the Cheryl Crow thread. That people are no longer capable of hearing musicality. I hear pop music of the 80's, most of which I heard at the roller rink, high school functions, MTV, etc. I loved it then, but had no idea how exquisitely written it was. I hear it now and am blown away by it. I hear current popular music, and in terms of composition, 80's music is closer to Mozart. Yet despite this obvious dumbing down, I'm constantly being told how great music today is? I can't see how anyone who actually heard the music can't hear the difference. Quite frankly, you'd have an easier time convincing me the earth is flat. There is literally nothing different from this new Vai/Satch song - that they haven't been doing since the 80's. It isn't lacking in anything per what it is they do. Now fine that may not be for you, but this is a great collaboration and would have easily fit on either of their 80's or 90's albums which I guess you never listened to. Honestly I don't understand how you can't enjoy the killer groove here even for the moment. The video is great too. It's obviously a nod to the 80's and when Satch had hair. I just can't help feel that you just way overanalyze music and just can't have fun with it for what it is. Meanwhile amateurs were paid to write a song for Rebecca Black - Friday - and that was some sort of second coming pop song for you. Your view may be different now, but you defended the hell out of that song at the time. It was embarrassing then and now. Yes, I listened to the Acoustic Alchemy song and you have shared their stuff in the past with me. They are very talented at what they do, however the problem and I don't understand why they and other similar artists think this sounds good, but their music is played and produced in a very cold, sterile and soulless way. If you told me that Acoustic Alchemy was AI created, I would believe you. Craig Chaquico has the same problem as I have some of his albums. Listen to the Jefferson Starship lush 80's production and then his sterile and soulless version. Do you actually think his smooth jazz version sounds good by comparison? Don't get me wrong, I like the Craig albums I have - but I would not make that creative choice and I wish he didn't either. It absolutely has an elevator music quality to it. |
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Post by kissoff on Mar 30, 2024 18:31:06 GMT -5
I tried, but the song meanders and is un-focused. I don't hear a song in there at all, just a bunch of riffs pasted together for five+ minutes. It doesn't help that they look completely ridiculous. Did you listen to the Acoustic Alchemy tune? Can you not hear the night and day difference in musical composition? That guitar solo thread made me think a lot of the musical gestures I (and millions of others, decades ago) find so appealing, either don't register with you or you don't care about. Did you even listen to any of the artists now labeled Sophisti-pop? That is the problem I was referring to in the Cheryl Crow thread. That people are no longer capable of hearing musicality. I hear pop music of the 80's, most of which I heard at the roller rink, high school functions, MTV, etc. I loved it then, but had no idea how exquisitely written it was. I hear it now and am blown away by it. I hear current popular music, and in terms of composition, 80's music is closer to Mozart. Yet despite this obvious dumbing down, I'm constantly being told how great music today is? I can't see how anyone who actually heard the music can't hear the difference. Quite frankly, you'd have an easier time convincing me the earth is flat. There is literally nothing different from this new Vai/Satch song - that they haven't been doing since the 80's. It isn't lacking in anything per what it is they do. Now fine that may not be for you, but this is a great collaboration and would have easily fit on either of their 80's or 90's albums which I guess you never listened to. Honestly I don't understand how you can't enjoy the killer groove here even for the moment. The video is great too. It's obviously a nod to the 80's and when Satch had hair. I just can't help feel that you just way overanalyze music and just can't have fun with it for what it is. Meanwhile amateurs were paid to write a song for Rebecca Black - Friday - and that was some sort of second coming pop song for you. Your view may be different now, but you defended the hell out of that song at the time. It was embarrassing then and now. Yes, I listened to the Acoustic Alchemy song and you have shared their stuff in the past with me. They are very talented at what they do, however the problem and I don't understand why they and other similar artists think this sounds good, but their music is played and produced in a very cold, sterile and soulless way. If you told me that Acoustic Alchemy was AI created, I would believe you. Craig Chaquico has the same problem as I have some of his albums. Listen to the Jefferson Starship lush 80's production and then his sterile and soulless version. Do you actually think his smooth jazz version sounds good by comparison? Don't get me wrong, I like the Craig albums I have - but I would not make that creative choice and I wish he didn't either. It absolutely has an elevator music quality to it. How come I don't see any reference to Flat Earth. I think you should at least make an effort to convince him. |
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Post by Hey Man on Mar 30, 2024 19:23:16 GMT -5
How come I don't see any reference to Flat Earth. I think you should at least make an effort to convince him. If he doesn't know already that the Earth is flat - there is nothing I can do. |
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Post by Mr. Blackwell on Mar 31, 2024 0:21:48 GMT -5
I tried, but the song meanders and is un-focused. I don't hear a song in there at all, just a bunch of riffs pasted together for five+ minutes. It doesn't help that they look completely ridiculous. Did you listen to the Acoustic Alchemy tune? Can you not hear the night and day difference in musical composition? That guitar solo thread made me think a lot of the musical gestures I (and millions of others, decades ago) find so appealing, either don't register with you or you don't care about. Did you even listen to any of the artists now labeled Sophisti-pop? That is the problem I was referring to in the Cheryl Crow thread. That people are no longer capable of hearing musicality. I hear pop music of the 80's, most of which I heard at the roller rink, high school functions, MTV, etc. I loved it then, but had no idea how exquisitely written it was. I hear it now and am blown away by it. I hear current popular music, and in terms of composition, 80's music is closer to Mozart. Yet despite this obvious dumbing down, I'm constantly being told how great music today is? I can't see how anyone who actually heard the music can't hear the difference. Quite frankly, you'd have an easier time convincing me the earth is flat. There is literally nothing different from this new Vai/Satch song - that they haven't been doing since the 80's. It isn't lacking in anything per what it is they do. Now fine that may not be for you, but this is a great collaboration and would have easily fit on either of their 80's or 90's albums which I guess you never listened to. Honestly I don't understand how you can't enjoy the killer groove here even for the moment. The video is great too. It's obviously a nod to the 80's and when Satch had hair. I just can't help feel that you just way overanalyze music and just can't have fun with it for what it is. Meanwhile amateurs were paid to write a song for Rebecca Black - Friday - and that was some sort of second coming pop song for you. Your view may be different now, but you defended the hell out of that song at the time. It was embarrassing then and now. Yes, I listened to the Acoustic Alchemy song and you have shared their stuff in the past with me. They are very talented at what they do, however the problem and I don't understand why they and other similar artists think this sounds good, but their music is played and produced in a very cold, sterile and soulless way. If you told me that Acoustic Alchemy was AI created, I would believe you. Craig Chaquico has the same problem as I have some of his albums. Listen to the Jefferson Starship lush 80's production and then his sterile and soulless version. Do you actually think his smooth jazz version sounds good by comparison? Don't get me wrong, I like the Craig albums I have - but I would not make that creative choice and I wish he didn't either. It absolutely has an elevator music quality to it. First off, I perceive your comment about Acoustic Alchemy sounding like AI as a huge compliment to them. That song was recorded almost 40 years ago; well before studio technology created the (Pro) Tools to allow lesser musicians to fix their mistakes. They actually sound that polished and perfect, which to modern ears may sound "soulless," since that's not how most sound today; even with help. I don't find the Vai/Satch song to groove at all. And truth be told, for all the accolades their guitarist-fans pour on them, their ability to groove has never been a trait of theirs. Have you ever heard them jam classic rock tunes at the end of their G3 shows, so they can wank endlessly over them? It's almost appalling how lacking these virtuosos sound playing basic riffs. And Vai has always had this side of him in which he thinks he's being hip and funny; but he's actually taking the geeky, nerdy guitar shtick way too far. And he lacks the self-awareness to realize how Star Trek-y he is. I bought his Live at the Astoria DVD years ago. He comes out in some goofy space suit with lights all over it. He acts like it's the most bad-ass thing ever; but it's actually stupider than anything Spinal Tap ever did. This video is the same.  |
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Post by Hey Man on Mar 31, 2024 0:48:25 GMT -5
Steve Vai has a great sense of humor and I assure you that he doesn't take himself seriously in this way at all. He also was a student of Frank Zappa, who was also over the top as well. I can't believe you actually think he is being serious with that photo you posted. He has a performance shtick and fine if you don't appreciate it, but he isn't thinking he is on Broadway here giving a serious performance in hopes to win awards.
It doesn't matter if the Acoustic Alchemy song was recorded 40 years ago or last week - it is cold, soulless and sterile. While I am not comparing KISS to AA at all here - Crazy Nights was cold, soulless and sterile in 1987 too. Soulless, cold and sterile production was a thing in the 80's for many music genres.
The point was that this production style also used by smooth jazz artists in general like Craig Chaquico is just terrible. The music would be far better served if it didn't have an element of elevator music to it, because it does or it sounds like royalty free music you can buy from some stock music company to put in your cheap indie film because you can't afford real music.
It would sound a million times better if they just produced the music with a lush natural sound that didn't come across as synthetic or something like Al Di Meola's albums. While I understand you love the music - a little "Mutt Lange" or "Quincy Jones" since you love both of them would do wonders for AA and smooth jazz in general.
Even if you love it as is - there is no way you don't know what I am talking about here.
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Post by Mr. Blackwell on Mar 31, 2024 1:37:25 GMT -5
"Terrible" and "Soulless" are opinions; I understand smooth jazz is not your cup of tea, but I don't find it either terrible or soulless.
In fact, to me it's the opposite; which is what attracted me to it in the first place.
Do you have any idea how processed both Vai's and Satch's guitars are? All those effects make everything they play sound soulless, as I can barely hear any personality through all that processing.
At its core, Acoustic Alchemy are a steel string acoustic and a nylon string acoustic, recorded as purely as possible.
I think a lot of people nowadays are put off by sophisticated arrangements and pristine playing. This is the "Me generation," in which there are recording tools, Instagram filters, etc.
"You do you" is the mantra of today. But if someone puts out something unattainable, it's attacked. It's like the people who see a fit, beautiful model and foolishly say she needs to eat a sandwich.
If Acoustic Alchemy didn't really sound like that, maybe I'd agree. But they are high-level musicians.
What do you want them to do? Deliberately play a few wrong notes? Add some noise to their recordings?
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Post by Hey Man on Mar 31, 2024 13:59:54 GMT -5
"Terrible" and "Soulless" are opinions; I understand smooth jazz is not your cup of tea, but I don't find it either terrible or soulless. In fact, to me it's the opposite; which is what attracted me to it in the first place. Do you have any idea how processed both Vai's and Satch's guitars are? All those effects make everything they play sound soulless, as I can barely hear any personality through all that processing. At its core, Acoustic Alchemy are a steel string acoustic and a nylon string acoustic, recorded as purely as possible. I think a lot of people nowadays are put off by sophisticated arrangements and pristine playing. This is the "Me generation," in which there are recording tools, Instagram filters, etc. "You do you" is the mantra of today. But if someone puts out something unattainable, it's attacked. It's like the people who see a fit, beautiful model and foolishly say she needs to eat a sandwich. If Acoustic Alchemy didn't really sound like that, maybe I'd agree. But they are high-level musicians. What do you want them to do? Deliberately play a few wrong notes? Add some noise to their recordings? Stop bringing up modern production - it has zero to do with that. You talk as if I haven't heard decades of music and different production styles. I wanted to get into music production for a career. You know exactly what I mean here. Acoustic guitars have been recorded a million different ways - from Crosby, Stills And Nash to The Eagles to KISS' Rock Bottom intro among a million others. Now despite their talent and let me clarify - I know AA are incredibly talented, but they along with many other smooth jazz artists have literally chosen the worst possible way to record their music. It actually takes away from their talent and ability, because it sounds like elevator music. It objectively comes across as soulless, sterile and cold. Not organic or natural like them playing the music live if they came to your house to perform. It is a CHOSEN production style that has been adopted by these types of artists for whatever reason. Let's not pretend that they HAVE to sound this way. It is the production style for smooth jazz - like grunge had a distinctive music production style. Neal Morse is a virtuoso prog rock musician, but he decided in 2018 to put together an acoustic band inspired by Crosby, Stills And Nash. This sounds a million times better than the production style of AA, Craig Chaquico, etc. Humor me this one time - listen to these two songs in full and give me your thoughts even if the music isn't for you. These are brilliant musicians, so you won't have any problem there. This is also a prime example of great music still being made. |
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