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Post by Hey Man on Feb 17, 2012 1:26:41 GMT -5
The Vixen thread made me think about this topic - if you are a band that is only going to sell 500 to 5000 copies of a new album max, should you really be making new albums in this day and age? Especially in the case of Viven - if you are going to ask other people to pay to make that album?
Now don't get me wrong, if Whitenake was only selling 5000 copies of their new album, I would still want it as a fan - but I would certainly understand if Coverdale said that it just isn't financially viable to make albums.
I mean I read all these stories about B level to F level 80's bands working on a new album and yes certainly they have fans that will buy them, but isn't it too little too late for LA Guns or Great White or whatever band to be working on a new album especially considering what Van Halen just sold.
For lesser bands, it seems to make more sense to release individual songs over a year that may make up a new album when they have eventually released all the tracks.
Ultimately I am an album guy and I don't even like the idea of bands releasing a 2 songs at a time or whatever, but the reality of the music industry today has made me realize that despite my love for albums - it's just bad business for many of these lesser bands to release albums when it will really sell nothing.
I mean if you want to finance an album yourself and sell it on your website - that is fine, but I think signing to a label like Frontiers for example, is only worthwhile if you actually have a track record and can still achieve sales on some level like Journey or Whitesnake.
What do you think - should bands still make new albums even if 5 people are gonna buy it or should they go about releasing new music in other ways that will be financially viable for them, but also please the fans. Or maybe the EP will make a big comeback.
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Post by lugnut on Feb 17, 2012 1:31:51 GMT -5
Totally agree that these types of bands should be focusing on making a really killer song instead of an album. If you can make an awesome new single that measures up to your old work and reminds everyone why they used to like you in the first place, the rest will probably fall into place to get an album going.
(And actually, the EP kind of is making a big comeback...though the funny thing is that most EPs now run the length of what a full-length LP would have in the pre-CD era. I know Gaga's Fame Monster EP was longer than nearly every "album" in the KISS catalogue.)
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Post by R&ROVER on Feb 17, 2012 9:54:33 GMT -5
I think every band has its fans, even Vixen. I simply don't have to buy it if I don't want it...and believe me, I don't want that. But why should I vote to determine that for someone else? There are plenty of people that hate Van Halen outright or like them but hate the new album and I'd hate the notion of them making that decision for me. Just because I think Vixen is suited to wipe EVH's brow doesn't mean it's not important to someone.
YES, someone will pay that $40. Probably lots of people to our great surprise.
Otherwise I'm going to sit back and watch people like us compile worthy and not-worthy lists and just PRAY the bands I enjoy don't show up on those lists.
Some people would even vote out of ignorance...I don't know that band, so fuck 'em. Say...Marillion, for instance.
I certainly would vote to END Nicki Minaj's career RIGHT NOW based on personal preference....but that Minaj fan might vote to make Van Halen go away, so what's gained? If you don't like Minaj or Vixen or Marillion or Van Halen, simply abstain.
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 17, 2012 15:10:28 GMT -5
I think every band has its fans, even Vixen. I simply don't have to buy it if I don't want it...and believe me, I don't want that. But why should I vote to determine that for someone else? There are plenty of people that hate Van Halen outright or like them but hate the new album and I'd hate the notion of them making that decision for me. Just because I think Vixen is suited to wipe EVH's brow doesn't mean it's not important to someone. YES, someone will pay that $40. Probably lots of people to our great surprise. Otherwise I'm going to sit back and watch people like us compile worthy and not-worthy lists and just PRAY the bands I enjoy don't show up on those lists. Some people would even vote out of ignorance...I don't know that band, so fuck 'em. Say...Marillion, for instance. I certainly would vote to END Nicki Minaj's career RIGHT NOW based on personal preference....but that Minaj fan might vote to make Van Halen go away, so what's gained? If you don't like Minaj or Vixen or Marillion or Van Halen, simply abstain. I don't know why these types of discussions always turn into "what right do I have to tell a band what to do". It's not about that at all - it's a completely legitimate debate from a business and financial standpoint. Vixen are not even going to come close to getting the $35,000 and in the end - they will be embarrassed that they couldn't even crack 500 bucks from the legion of Vixen fans worldwide. I mean even asking for $35,000 in this economy mixed with the fact that no one really cared about you in your prime is just fucking stupid. Van Halen are financially viable with an album and tour in this day and age, so someone making the same argument because they don't like Van Halen would be idiotic. But yes, if you are band from the 80's that is playing to 20 people now in a shack, you shouldn't be making new albums from a financial standpoint. Especially if you want people to invest in you to make that album. Lugnut is right - bands like this should concentrate on writing 1 or 2 really great songs and if those deliver, then maybe there will be some hype or interest for a new album. But if you throw an album together like many of these bands do and they don't even sell 500 copies, it's just pointless for their career and actually does more damage to their legacy over anything positive. Like Peter Criss and One For All. |
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Post by Gappvembe on Feb 17, 2012 15:15:16 GMT -5
I agree. If the fans want it I suppose, and they are willing to pay for it. Hell the kickstarter thing might be a last ditch effort, if they drum up the money, that was the justification for them to make an album. Maybe as musicians, they want to make new music, but need the funds to either make it, or just survive while doing it. We all have the right to say we don't want to hear it, but let the fans like what they like.
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Post by Wolfman on Feb 17, 2012 15:45:54 GMT -5
Using this logic should local bands not even bother making new albums? they dont sell alot and most of the time they lost money.
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Post by Justlee on Feb 17, 2012 15:59:49 GMT -5
Using this logic should local bands not even bother making new albums? they dont sell alot and most of the time they lost money. Its not impossible to make some profit. My band is well into the black with our latest cd. We have sold 3,200 online and locally since June 2011. Our average price was $10.00 per disc. But, it was done in my studio. The only cost we incurred was $2,000 to press and we have put about another $1,000 into marketing. I usually record other bands....if they are any good....for about $100 per song. So our cd would cost $1,400 to make. So $32,000 minus $4,400= $27,600 profit and in our case..$29,000. I am sure Vixen could move more units than we have. I am sure they could land some regional distribution as well. It doesn't cost that much to record these days. |
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 17, 2012 16:02:35 GMT -5
Using this logic should local bands not even bother making new albums? they dont sell alot and most of the time they lost money. Its not impossible to make some profit. My band is well into the black with our latest cd. We have sold 3,200 online and locally since June 2011. Our average price was $10.00 per disc. But, it was done in my studio. The only cost we incurred was $2,000 to press and we have put about another $1,000 into marketing. I usually record other bands....if they are any good....for about $100 per song. So our cd would cost $1,400 to make. So $32,000 minus $4,400= $27,600 profit in our case. I am sure Vixen could move more units than we have. I am sure they could land some regional distribution as well. It doesn't cost that much to record these days. Do you think asking for $35,000 to make their album is excessive? |
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 17, 2012 16:05:32 GMT -5
Using this logic should local bands not even bother making new albums? they dont sell alot and most of the time they lost money. Not the same. They never had a moment in the sun with big album sales at one point, so the expecations are different. |
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Post by Vandelay Industries on Feb 17, 2012 16:10:59 GMT -5
Its not impossible to make some profit. My band is well into the black with our latest cd. We have sold 3,200 online and locally since June 2011. Our average price was $10.00 per disc. But, it was done in my studio. The only cost we incurred was $2,000 to press and we have put about another $1,000 into marketing. I usually record other bands....if they are any good....for about $100 per song. So our cd would cost $1,400 to make. So $32,000 minus $4,400= $27,600 profit in our case. I am sure Vixen could move more units than we have. I am sure they could land some regional distribution as well. It doesn't cost that much to record these days. Do you think asking for $35,000 to make their album is excessive? for vixen, they could do it for a fraction of that. i bet they're factoring in other non-recording expenses & also just want to pay themselves on top of everything.....although looking at how that pledge drive is going, it's gonna be nothing but wishful thinking.... |
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 17, 2012 16:17:31 GMT -5
Not the same. They never had a moment in the sun with big album sales at one point, so the expecations are different. Local bands are attempting to have their big break. Bands like Vixen are decades past their "big" break and have no hope in hell of finding a sympathetic public to give two shits about them. Yes, but starting out is different than selling 500,000 CD's at one point to selling 500 CD's. If you are new on the scene - of course make a new album and try to get it to break. I thought Wolfman was referring to local bands that have been around for 20 years and have always only sold 500 CD's. |
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Post by Justlee on Feb 17, 2012 17:08:44 GMT -5
Its not impossible to make some profit. My band is well into the black with our latest cd. We have sold 3,200 online and locally since June 2011. Our average price was $10.00 per disc. But, it was done in my studio. The only cost we incurred was $2,000 to press and we have put about another $1,000 into marketing. I usually record other bands....if they are any good....for about $100 per song. So our cd would cost $1,400 to make. So $32,000 minus $4,400= $27,600 profit in our case. I am sure Vixen could move more units than we have. I am sure they could land some regional distribution as well. It doesn't cost that much to record these days. Do you think asking for $35,000 to make their album is excessive? Yes I do. They don't want to take a chance. Not many business ventures are out there where there is no risk involved. If they don't have the means to do this thing, then I agree they shouldn't even be worried about doing it. Do some shows....save your money and go throw down a grand to make an ep and pony up another grand to have it pressed and see what you can do. If you can't, don't do it. It looks pretty sad in my opinion to beg fans to finance the venture. |
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 17, 2012 17:25:12 GMT -5
Do you think asking for $35,000 to make their album is excessive? Yes I do. They don't want to take a chance. Not many business ventures are out there where there is no risk involved. If they don't have the means to do this thing, then I agree they shouldn't even be worried about doing it. Do some shows....save your money and go throw down a grand to make an ep and pony up another grand to have it pressed and see what you can do. If you can't, don't do it. It looks pretty sad in my opinion to beg fans to finance the venture. Totally agree. But in this day and age in terms of technology - what would it cost to produce an album sounds kick ass? I mean if you want a high profile producer, that will cost you a pretty penny, but if they simply want to have an album that sounds like they got the top producer in the world to do it, what would be the ballpark figure. Or does it all boil down to how creative the people are you do have producing your album and how the album is recorded. |
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Post by Justlee on Feb 17, 2012 17:40:43 GMT -5
They could get a quality recording done for $5,000 in a pro tools studio that would sound probably better than their big album back in the day. It wouldn't sound like the new Shinedown stuff or anything, which is one of the best mixes I have heard in a while, but it would be adequate for Vixen for fucks sake. They are trying to get paid off the top.
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 17, 2012 17:43:44 GMT -5
They could get a quality recording done for $5,000 in a pro tools studio that would sound probably better than their big album back in the day. It wouldn't sound like the new Shinedown stuff or anything, which is one of the best mixes I have heard in a while, but it would be adequate for Vixen for fucks sake. They are trying to get paid off the top. But just to clarify - even if you are the most tech savvy person in the world - can you make an epic sounding album on your Mac for practically nothing but the cost of running your computer and any equipment? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2012 17:47:33 GMT -5
They could get a quality recording done for $5,000 in a pro tools studio that would sound probably better than their big album back in the day. It wouldn't sound like the new Shinedown stuff or anything, which is one of the best mixes I have heard in a while, but it would be adequate for Vixen for fucks sake. They are trying to get paid off the top. But just to clarify - even if you are the most tech savvy person in the world - can you make an epic sounding album on your Mac for practically nothing but the cost of running your computer and any equipment? I think you can. There is some really good software out there. Ask some recording geeks. |
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Post by Anomacunt the Excellent on Feb 17, 2012 18:02:58 GMT -5
Using this logic should local bands not even bother making new albums? they dont sell alot and most of the time they lost money. Its not impossible to make some profit. My band is well into the black with our latest cd. We have sold 3,200 online and locally since June 2011. Our average price was $10.00 per disc. But, it was done in my studio. The only cost we incurred was $2,000 to press and we have put about another $1,000 into marketing. I usually record other bands....if they are any good....for about $100 per song. So our cd would cost $1,400 to make. So $32,000 minus $4,400= $27,600 profit and in our case..$29,000. I am sure Vixen could move more units than we have. I am sure they could land some regional distribution as well. It doesn't cost that much to record these days. Congrats on the success Lee! |
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Post by Justlee on Feb 17, 2012 18:03:46 GMT -5
Go to www.chasing-karma.com and check out some samples from our cd Cosmocracy...this was recorded and mastered in my studio. Now, I'm not claiming it is epic or anything...but I think it sounds good enough for Vixen. Oh, and by the way, I am not just trying to promote my stuff here....as you know, I usually don't do that here at all. |
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Post by Justlee on Feb 17, 2012 18:06:03 GMT -5
Thanks Anomaly....but once you divide it 5 ways you can see its not enough to make a living at, but it does pay for itself. We are working on the next one now.
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 17, 2012 18:07:30 GMT -5
Go to www.chasing-karma.com and check out some samples from our cd Cosmocracy...this was recorded and mastered in my studio. Now, I'm not claiming it is epic or anything...but I think it sounds good enough for Vixen. Oh, and by the way, I am not just trying to promote my stuff here....as you know, I usually don't do that here at all. Promote your stuff all you want Lee - I have absolutely no problem with that. Be a whore like Gene Simmons or me. |
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Post by Justlee on Feb 17, 2012 18:15:26 GMT -5
Go to www.chasing-karma.com and check out some samples from our cd Cosmocracy...this was recorded and mastered in my studio. Now, I'm not claiming it is epic or anything...but I think it sounds good enough for Vixen. Oh, and by the way, I am not just trying to promote my stuff here....as you know, I usually don't do that here at all. Promote your stuff all you want Lee - I have absolutely no problem with that. Be a whore like Gene Simmons or me. Its cool. I do promote it on various sites. I got the signature banner and all. I do appreciate it Hey Man....I know we have many disagreements here, but you are ok with me....even when I am just busting your balls over something...  |
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Post by Hey Man on Feb 17, 2012 18:17:40 GMT -5
Listening now - so far really dig What You See. Did you write or co-write that.
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Post by Wolfman on Feb 17, 2012 18:20:50 GMT -5
Using this logic should local bands not even bother making new albums? they dont sell alot and most of the time they lost money. Not the same. They never had a moment in the sun with big album sales at one point, so the expecations are different. It is kinda the same how I see it as most local bands want to make it big. Should the acts on indie labels that dont sell a ton of stuff stop making music as well? |
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Post by Wolfman on Feb 17, 2012 18:21:31 GMT -5
I will have to check it out later almost dinner time here but I will check it out
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Post by Justlee on Feb 17, 2012 18:27:15 GMT -5
Listening now - so far really dig What You See. Did you write or co-write that. I did the music, Mark, our singer did the lyrics and melodies on that one. |
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Post by Justlee on Feb 17, 2012 18:28:38 GMT -5
Again, I am not saying my recordings match epic material...but we are talking Vixen.....lol
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Post by R&ROVER on Feb 17, 2012 19:49:18 GMT -5
I think every band has its fans, even Vixen. I simply don't have to buy it if I don't want it...and believe me, I don't want that. But why should I vote to determine that for someone else? There are plenty of people that hate Van Halen outright or like them but hate the new album and I'd hate the notion of them making that decision for me. Just because I think Vixen is suited to wipe EVH's brow doesn't mean it's not important to someone. YES, someone will pay that $40. Probably lots of people to our great surprise. Otherwise I'm going to sit back and watch people like us compile worthy and not-worthy lists and just PRAY the bands I enjoy don't show up on those lists. Some people would even vote out of ignorance...I don't know that band, so fuck 'em. Say...Marillion, for instance. I certainly would vote to END Nicki Minaj's career RIGHT NOW based on personal preference....but that Minaj fan might vote to make Van Halen go away, so what's gained? If you don't like Minaj or Vixen or Marillion or Van Halen, simply abstain. I don't know why these types of discussions always turn into "what right do I have to tell a band what to do". It's not about that at all - it's a completely legitimate debate from a business and financial standpoint. Vixen are not even going to come close to getting the $35,000 and in the end - they will be embarrassed that they couldn't even crack 500 bucks from the legion of Vixen fans worldwide. I mean even asking for $35,000 in this economy mixed with the fact that no one really cared about you in your prime is just fucking stupid. Van Halen are financially viable with an album and tour in this day and age, so someone making the same argument because they don't like Van Halen would be idiotic. But yes, if you are band from the 80's that is playing to 20 people now in a shack, you shouldn't be making new albums from a financial standpoint. Especially if you want people to invest in you to make that album. Lugnut is right - bands like this should concentrate on writing 1 or 2 really great songs and if those deliver, then maybe there will be some hype or interest for a new album. But if you throw an album together like many of these bands do and they don't even sell 500 copies, it's just pointless for their career and actually does more damage to their legacy over anything positive. Like Peter Criss and One For All. Really...who cares? If no one wants it then no one will buy it. What's the big fucking mystery with questions like this? THere's a lot of shit out there I don't think is viable and there are always 10,000 fucktards or better who lap it up. That twat Minaj and her scatterbrained horror opera will probably sell 5 times what Van Halen sells...and it's utter crap. Van Halen's contract will dry up and wither long before Minaj, but if it's about quality then the reverse will happen. But it won't. It has NOTHING to do with quality. Quality ensures NOTHING. Van Halen album smokes. Whitesnake album smokes. If it sold 7 copies and came with a corned beef sandwich coupon, it'd still smoke...but now it would also be an abject failure. Relative success is the only thing that determines if there will be a next go 'round, not quality. I wish it were that simple. If Vixen's album sucks BUT somehow has some fluke relative success, there will be another one...guaranteed. |
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Post by lugnut on Feb 17, 2012 20:07:04 GMT -5
Really...who cares? If no one wants it then no one will buy it. What's the big fucking mystery with questions like this? THere's a lot of shit out there I don't think is viable and there are always 10,000 fucktards or better who lap it up. That twat Minaj and her scatterbrained horror opera will probably sell 5 times what Van Halen sells...and it's utter crap. Van Halen's contract will dry up and wither long before Minaj, but if it's about quality then the reverse will happen. But it won't. It has NOTHING to do with quality. Quality ensures NOTHING. Van Halen album smokes. Whitesnake album smokes. If it sold 7 copies and came with a corned beef sandwich coupon, it'd still smoke...but now it would also be an abject failure. Relative success is the only thing that determines if there will be a next go 'round, not quality. I wish it were that simple. If Vixen's album sucks BUT somehow has some fluke relative success, there will be another one...guaranteed. Yeah, but Whitesnake and Van Halen aren't Vixen or Bulletboyz or L.A. Guns or such, even if their profile is significantly lower than it used to be. I'd say for those bands (and hell, KISS too) it does make sense to keep focusing on albums because they've still got enough of an audience for it. Vixen, et al don't. I agree that relative success is the main factor, but it's utterly ridiculous for these G-list bands to believe they're going to pull it off... unless they really go all-out and put absolutely all of their focus (and maybe money) on one amazing fluke single instead of just churning out yet another cookie-cutter album. (And as for Minaj, I could be wrong, but I don't think we'll be hearing too much more from her. I think she was nominated for a ton of Grammys but didn't win a single one, and her performance and new songs are being pretty much universally shat on everywhere. Like I said on the thread about her on the FAQ, her bag of tricks is too limited. She can be pretty great on the right track, in small doses, but she's got nowhere to go from here. She stood out at first solely because of her unique delivery, but now we've heard all of that and it's not impressive anymore, which might not be a problem if she had something unique to say or something different in her music... but she doesn't.) |
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Post by Justlee on Feb 17, 2012 20:20:43 GMT -5
I don't know why these types of discussions always turn into "what right do I have to tell a band what to do". It's not about that at all - it's a completely legitimate debate from a business and financial standpoint. Vixen are not even going to come close to getting the $35,000 and in the end - they will be embarrassed that they couldn't even crack 500 bucks from the legion of Vixen fans worldwide. I mean even asking for $35,000 in this economy mixed with the fact that no one really cared about you in your prime is just fucking stupid. Van Halen are financially viable with an album and tour in this day and age, so someone making the same argument because they don't like Van Halen would be idiotic. But yes, if you are band from the 80's that is playing to 20 people now in a shack, you shouldn't be making new albums from a financial standpoint. Especially if you want people to invest in you to make that album. Lugnut is right - bands like this should concentrate on writing 1 or 2 really great songs and if those deliver, then maybe there will be some hype or interest for a new album. But if you throw an album together like many of these bands do and they don't even sell 500 copies, it's just pointless for their career and actually does more damage to their legacy over anything positive. Like Peter Criss and One For All. Really...who cares? If no one wants it then no one will buy it. What's the big fucking mystery with questions like this? THere's a lot of shit out there I don't think is viable and there are always 10,000 fucktards or better who lap it up. That twat Minaj and her scatterbrained horror opera will probably sell 5 times what Van Halen sells...and it's utter crap. Van Halen's contract will dry up and wither long before Minaj, but if it's about quality then the reverse will happen. But it won't. It has NOTHING to do with quality. Quality ensures NOTHING. Van Halen album smokes. Whitesnake album smokes. If it sold 7 copies and came with a corned beef sandwich coupon, it'd still smoke...but now it would also be an abject failure. Relative success is the only thing that determines if there will be a next go 'round, not quality. I wish it were that simple. If Vixen's album sucks BUT somehow has some fluke relative success, there will be another one...guaranteed. I agree here. Besides, bands who write music like to record. No reason for them not to if they can pull it off. In Vixen's case, I just think it is pitiful to beg fans to pay for it. Other than that, knock yourself out. |
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Post by Anomacunt the Excellent on Feb 17, 2012 20:24:24 GMT -5
Didn't Kip Winger just try the same thing? Wonder how that's going...
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