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Post by Hey Man on Oct 23, 2011 2:24:46 GMT -5
Well I stand by that bold statement, which I don't think is so bold in the first place. I think I am pretty much stating the obvious. Sure, there's the overly passionate fan in KISS, I don't deny that. So if by that that is an obvious statement - fine. However you've got those types of fans with other bands. To say we're holding poll position in that category is silly, IMO. It may not be as documented elsewhere, or it just appears to be more prominent as we follow KISS more closely than other bands. In one way or another, we're all 'sheep'. We follow something. Who gives a shit. It seems people are too wrapped up with concerns of who is a blind worshipper or not. Who cares. Like what you like, let others like what they like and be done with it. It's child's play. I thought high school finished long ago. I know I've got better things to worry about than if Gary (or whomever) supports every single thing the band does. Sorry. Don't mean for that to sound at all harsh but wow. This gets boring. Us vs Them. Sheep or not sheep. We can talk about the band without getting into that crap. I am simply speaking from my knowledge, experience and observations - I personally have never seen a band in my life that has as much blind worship as KISS does. In fact, I don't think KISS would still be around today, if KISS didn't have countless fans who do blindly worship the band. KISS should have actually died long ago and they would have, if they were properly held to a higher standard. But when someone can defend Bang Bang You or the MANY bad albums they have made, there is a huge problem there in my opinion.
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Post by Justlee on Oct 23, 2011 2:49:43 GMT -5
Great post dute. You are exactly right. Het Man just can't understand how someone could like them because he doesn't. He does the same thing in the politics section. It's his way or you're an idiot kind of thing......
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 23, 2011 3:02:12 GMT -5
Great post dute. You are exactly right. Het Man just can't understand how someone could like them because he doesn't. He does the same thing in the politics section. It's his way or you're an idiot kind of thing...... It's not that at all, but to deny that KISS has an abundance of sheep or countless fans who blindly worship the band is incredibly naive. All you need to do is read KISSFAQ to see that it's very much real. KISS 2.0 anyone?
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Post by dute on Oct 23, 2011 5:07:19 GMT -5
Great post dute. You are exactly right. Het Man just can't understand how someone could like them because he doesn't. He does the same thing in the politics section. It's his way or you're an idiot kind of thing...... It's not that at all, but to deny that KISS has an abundance of sheep or countless fans who blindly worship the band is incredibly naive. All you need to do is read KISSFAQ to see that it's very much real. KISS 2.0 anyone? This isn't about denial and nor am I singling him out with my posts. It's about the fact, every band have had and will have followers who will support every facet of the band. Back in 81 when fans liked The Elder were they sheep being fed crap by KISS? What if they just legitimately liked the album? Good for them. There were many fans who abandoned them. Also factor in that KISS is bringing in the younger folk these days and they're experiencing what is currently out there right NOW so let them enjoy it. There's a few teen fans at the FAQ and I'm sure they're in a discovery period where they'll get to know all eras of the band and form their own decisions on things. Doesn't mean they'll end up being force fed KISS 2.0 (if that even goes ahead, don't think it will) and liking it. I am simply speaking from my knowledge, experience and observations - I personally have never seen a band in my life that has as much blind worship as KISS does. In fact, I don't think KISS would still be around today, if KISS didn't have countless fans who do blindly worship the band. KISS should have actually died long ago and they would have, if they were properly held to a higher standard. But when someone can defend Bang Bang You or the MANY bad albums they have made, there is a huge problem there in my opinion. So let them be. The man out there with an Alice Cooper tattoo might be considered a sheep to an outside observer but you don't know if the man disagrees with Alice's DaDa period. And the point is, who cares. Let's not forget people's opinions on things can change. Ask someone in 5 years if they still love X song or X look or X piece of merchandise from the band and they might have a different answer for you. Let's not get wrapped up in who is more fanatical or not. Not trying to shoot down your experiences Hey Man, I hope you understand where I'm coming from. Actually reminds me of this quote from the movie Two Weeks Notice: George Wade: Before you came into my life I could make all kinds of decisions now I'm addicted I have to know what you think. What do you think? [holds up cufflinks] Lucy Kelson: I think you're the most selfish human being on the planet. George Wade: Well that's just silly. Have you met everybody on the planet? Now excuse me whilst I go and listen to Read My Body.
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Post by Vandelay Industries on Oct 23, 2011 8:45:18 GMT -5
every band has sheep, but i agree that kiss leads the pack (or is it herd?). of all the bands i have followed, kiss is the one group that consistently talks the talk more than walks the walk. since the early 80's, they've mostly delivered appetizers for entree prices, which would've wiped out most fanbases entirely. even with the reunion giving them a fresh start, they've still managed to underwhelm more often than not. the boxset.....now that the "honeymoon" phase is over, you still gonna tell me that WASN'T heavily padded? kissologies.....nice to have some DVD upgrades, but realistically a big "meh" so far, not to mentioned heavily padded as well. a proper documented reunion show.....no, but hey, we got 'second coming', where they scratch their own nutsacks instead of delivering a full concert. 'psycho circus'.....do i even need to fucking go there? 'sonic boom'......some good stuff on there, but let's face it: both sonically and visually, it masquerades as something it isn't. i wonder how many casual music fans got duped into buying that, thinking ace & peter were on it (after all, thayer & singer's name is nowhere to be found on the outside packaging....how convenient!). i can go on--and should--but you get the point.
i look at many of my other favorite bands & what they've released in the last decade or so, and more often than not i feel "money well spent....couldn't ask for much more". with kiss it's almost always "gee, if only they did _________", or "why didn't they do _________?" and so on.....
and yes, i speak from experience, being a sheep for many years, but finally woke up around the time of 'psycho circus'.....
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Post by lugnut on Oct 23, 2011 10:07:51 GMT -5
I'd say Beatle sheep are far worse than KISS sheep, though maybe only by a hair.
I mean, I love the Beatles, but some of these fuckers are just insane. They'll buy any worthless piece of crap Apple Corps dumps out no matter how many times they may already own the same content. They're still mad at Yoko. They buy each and every increasingly-shitty solo product (and probably on five or six different formats and 12 versions from different countries just to be on the safe side). They have multiple-page discussions about what Paul McCartney ate for breakfast in 1975 when he went to visit John, and of course, they call him Macca because he's clearly a close personal friend. They post anniversary threads on the dates of John and George's deaths where they all talk about how "it's still hard to go on" and how they've been crying all day. I could keep going.
In short, Beatle Sheep kinda creep me out. At least KISS sheep aren't quite as disturbing usually.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2011 10:26:16 GMT -5
Kee nailed it, wonder what that "he was flown off the boat to a throat doctor in Boston" story came from though. From someone's ass, I believe. OK, I now have to admit I was wrong! And I'm happy for it! Read what "Pollux" has written in this thread. www.kissfaq.com/forum11/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=66125&start=60Apparently Paul himself has said that he's going to get surgery! This is great news and a shocker to me, really. I mean, shocking that Paul would be so candid about questions about his problems. We'll see if he gets better. Anyways, this is great news.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 23, 2011 13:33:00 GMT -5
It's not that at all, but to deny that KISS has an abundance of sheep or countless fans who blindly worship the band is incredibly naive. All you need to do is read KISSFAQ to see that it's very much real. KISS 2.0 anyone? This isn't about denial and nor am I singling him out with my posts. It's about the fact, every band have had and will have followers who will support every facet of the band. Back in 81 when fans liked The Elder were they sheep being fed crap by KISS? What if they just legitimately liked the album? Good for them. There were many fans who abandoned them. Also factor in that KISS is bringing in the younger folk these days and they're experiencing what is currently out there right NOW so let them enjoy it. There's a few teen fans at the FAQ and I'm sure they're in a discovery period where they'll get to know all eras of the band and form their own decisions on things. Doesn't mean they'll end up being force fed KISS 2.0 (if that even goes ahead, don't think it will) and liking it. I am simply speaking from my knowledge, experience and observations - I personally have never seen a band in my life that has as much blind worship as KISS does. In fact, I don't think KISS would still be around today, if KISS didn't have countless fans who do blindly worship the band. KISS should have actually died long ago and they would have, if they were properly held to a higher standard. But when someone can defend Bang Bang You or the MANY bad albums they have made, there is a huge problem there in my opinion. So let them be. The man out there with an Alice Cooper tattoo might be considered a sheep to an outside observer but you don't know if the man disagrees with Alice's DaDa period. And the point is, who cares. Let's not forget people's opinions on things can change. Ask someone in 5 years if they still love X song or X look or X piece of merchandise from the band and they might have a different answer for you. Let's not get wrapped up in who is more fanatical or not. Not trying to shoot down your experiences Hey Man, I hope you understand where I'm coming from. Actually reminds me of this quote from the movie Two Weeks Notice: George Wade: Before you came into my life I could make all kinds of decisions now I'm addicted I have to know what you think. What do you think? [holds up cufflinks] Lucy Kelson: I think you're the most selfish human being on the planet. George Wade: Well that's just silly. Have you met everybody on the planet? Now excuse me whilst I go and listen to Read My Body. I have seen Two Weeks Notice and know that quote well. Having said that, I am not denying that every band has sheep - I am just simply stating that KISS are the kings of sheep fans or blind worship. Let me put it to you this way, generally speaking - KISS are looked at as one of the worst bands ever when it comes to actual music. Right from the start, KISS fans are looked at as being freaks. Every KISS fan has a story about how people made fun of them at one point of another for liking KISS. I certainly never got that for liking any other band. So similar to say Star Trek, there is a sheep following like no other that follows KISS. I didn't just join the FAQ yesterday. There are PLENTY of members that have been there from the start or close to the start that defend everything the band does and can't be critical of the band at all - if KISS did a rap album they would still defend it on some level. It's not just young people or the new generation of KISS fan, although there is one who is odd with his all I need to listen to is KISS and nothing else way of thinking. Look, we will probably never agree about this. Some will agree with me that KISS are the heavyweight champions of sheep and some don't. Ultimately I am just stating what I believe is true from my knowledge, experience and by simply being around KISS fans my whole life. It doesn't bother me that they exist, but I don't think we should ignore that fact in conversation.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2011 17:19:56 GMT -5
Am I the only one who's excited/nervous about Paul's alleged surgery?
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Post by Justlee on Oct 23, 2011 17:50:43 GMT -5
Am I the only one who's excited/nervous about Paul's alleged surgery? Should be interesting. I wish him the best.
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Post by dute on Oct 23, 2011 18:26:56 GMT -5
I have seen Two Weeks Notice and know that quote well. Having said that, I am not denying that every band has sheep - I am just simply stating that KISS are the kings of sheep fans or blind worship. I'm not denying it either. But to say they're the Kings of Sheepdom is something you can't really state with certainty. Look, we will probably never agree about this. Some will agree with me that KISS are the heavyweight champions of sheep and some don't. Ultimately I am just stating what I believe is true from my knowledge, experience and by simply being around KISS fans my whole life. It doesn't bother me that they exist, but I don't think we should ignore that fact in conversation. No we probably won't agree but it's been a good discussion on it anyway. I just think it DOES seem to concern you that they exist. Let's talk KISS without being concerned who might love everything about the band. The discussion is the key here.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 23, 2011 18:42:08 GMT -5
I have seen Two Weeks Notice and know that quote well. Having said that, I am not denying that every band has sheep - I am just simply stating that KISS are the kings of sheep fans or blind worship. I'm not denying it either. But to say they're the Kings of Sheepdom is something you can't really state with certainty. Look, we will probably never agree about this. Some will agree with me that KISS are the heavyweight champions of sheep and some don't. Ultimately I am just stating what I believe is true from my knowledge, experience and by simply being around KISS fans my whole life. It doesn't bother me that they exist, but I don't think we should ignore that fact in conversation. No we probably won't agree but it's been a good discussion on it anyway. I just think it DOES seem to concern you that they exist. Let's talk KISS without being concerned who might love everything about the band. The discussion is the key here. It only concerns me in the sense that I wish more KISS fans could be harsh or critical when it comes to the band.
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Post by dute on Oct 23, 2011 18:47:45 GMT -5
I'm sure there's fans out there that aren't on the FAQ with differing views opinions. Hell, look at the commentary on youtube videos for varying opinions. I've seen plenty on the FAQ when KISS have released something, said something or played something that wasn't to their liking.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 23, 2011 19:11:08 GMT -5
I'm sure there's fans out there that aren't on the FAQ with differing views opinions. Hell, look at the commentary on youtube videos for varying opinions. I've seen plenty on the FAQ when KISS have released something, said something or played something that wasn't to their liking. Yes, but overall - KISS have half-assed their entire music career because fans haven't demanded more from them in my opinion. Other bands have been known to actually acknowledge when their fans have been unhappy about various things, but with KISS - they constantly make excuses and seem to be happy living in denial.
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Post by dute on Oct 23, 2011 19:44:01 GMT -5
I'm sure there's fans out there that aren't on the FAQ with differing views opinions. Hell, look at the commentary on youtube videos for varying opinions. I've seen plenty on the FAQ when KISS have released something, said something or played something that wasn't to their liking. Yes, but overall - KISS have half-assed their entire music career because fans haven't demanded more from them in my opinion. Other bands have been known to actually acknowledge when their fans have been unhappy about various things, but with KISS - they constantly make excuses and seem to be happy living in denial. Bands will do whatever they will want to do. I'm sure there's fans of AC/DC in the 80s who wished they'd lift their game - I consider most of their material weak around that time. Brian Johnson basically told fans to shut the fuck up about the set list on the Black Ice tour. Just because these guys hear, doesn't mean they'll obey. These 'big boys' of rock are huge machines. You can't stop 'em. Only way they'll sit up and notice is if the audiences dwindle away. Until then, they're pulling in the crowds.
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Post by Justlee on Oct 23, 2011 20:58:46 GMT -5
I'm sure there's fans out there that aren't on the FAQ with differing views opinions. Hell, look at the commentary on youtube videos for varying opinions. I've seen plenty on the FAQ when KISS have released something, said something or played something that wasn't to their liking. Yes, but overall - KISS have half-assed their entire music career because fans haven't demanded more from them in my opinion. Other bands have been known to actually acknowledge when their fans have been unhappy about various things, but with KISS - they constantly make excuses and seem to be happy living in denial. I disagree about KISS half-assing their music career. I think they have done just fine. I mean they aren't the most talented bunch of guys. They have done well with what they have to work with. If anything they have over-achieved. They have found ways to keep their career going. It has worked for them. It seems if you like what KISS does today you are immediately branded a sheep. Just because some just don't understand how anyone could like them anymore...they call you sheep. I quite liked Sonic Boom. Does that make me a sheep?? I think Psycho Circus sucked. Am I a sheep?? I also think they sounded like shit for the most part during the Reunion Tour. Sheep?? I absolutely think the show I saw on the RARO Tour was the best show I have ever seen...Sheep?? Gene's full of shit, Paul has an ego problem and his voice is shot, Ace is lazy, Peter is an asshole that can't play drums for shit anymore. Does any of this qualify me as a sheep?? That's what I was called over at the FAQ over and over. Mainly because I like Sonic Boom. It's funny the ones who complain about the KISS Sheep or whatever, just can't seem to let it go and move on. If I hated what KISS did today, I would move on to other bands. It's not like they are holding a gun to your head or anything. There are plenty of bands out there that need your support that aren't doing as well as KISS these days....like Whitesnake for example......
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 23, 2011 21:11:29 GMT -5
Yes, but overall - KISS have half-assed their entire music career because fans haven't demanded more from them in my opinion. Other bands have been known to actually acknowledge when their fans have been unhappy about various things, but with KISS - they constantly make excuses and seem to be happy living in denial. I disagree about KISS half-assing their music career. I think they have done just fine. I mean they aren't the most talented bunch of guys. They have done well with what they have to work with. If anything they have over-achieved. They have found ways to keep their career going. It has worked for them. It's funny they ones who complain about the KISS Sheep or whatever, just can't seem to let it go and move on. If I hated what KISS did today, I would move on to other bands. It's not like they are holding a gun to your head or anything. There are plenty of bands out there that need your support that aren't doing as well as KISS these days....like Whitesnake for example...... Over achieved? Most of their albums are incredibly mediocre and they could have made much more of an effort than they actually did when it came to songwriting and production. Yes, they found a way to keep their career going through the sheep. You have proved my point for me. I have moved on to other bands, but I certainly have the right to comment on a band that I had been a fan of since I was 5 years old.
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Post by Justlee on Oct 23, 2011 21:14:46 GMT -5
Every band keeps their career going through their sheep as you call them. Or diehards. Some just have more than others. Most lose them at some point and fold up shop.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 23, 2011 21:18:49 GMT -5
Every band keeps their career going through their sheep as you call them. Or diehards. Some just have more than others. Most lose them at some point and fold up shop. That's right and KISS have the most of all.
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Post by Justlee on Oct 23, 2011 21:22:48 GMT -5
Every band keeps their career going through their sheep as you call them. Or diehards. Some just have more than others. Most lose them at some point and fold up shop. That's right and KISS have the most of all. Just because some like what the band does today doesn't make them sheep though.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 23, 2011 21:28:03 GMT -5
That's right and KISS have the most of all. Just because some like what the band does today doesn't make them sheep though. But those "some" don't even remotely compare to the long time KISS fans that just can't say anything negative about the band. I do read what people say on KISSFAQ and that forum does represent the hard core KISS fan.
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Post by dute on Oct 23, 2011 21:29:16 GMT -5
You don't think there's a portion of fans out there who may have actually legitimately enjoyed what they released?
Going by your theory, every band, artist or actor etc who had one bad album or bad movie should have disappeared and shut up shop long ago.
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Post by Justlee on Oct 23, 2011 21:42:07 GMT -5
You don't think there's a portion of fans out there who may have actually legitimately enjoyed what they released? Going by your theory, every band, artist or actor etc who had one bad album or bad movie should have disappeared and shut up shop long ago. Another excellent post dute.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 23, 2011 21:46:29 GMT -5
You don't think there's a portion of fans out there who may have actually legitimately enjoyed what they released? Going by your theory, every band, artist or actor etc who had one bad album or bad movie should have disappeared and shut up shop long ago. KISS have MANY bad albums. If it was actually one album or even two, then I could see your point. I WISH it was just one bad album. I have had this discussion with people before on the FAQ and many have acknowledged that they hold KISS to a lesser standard than the other bands they listen to for whatever reason and I don't know why this is. So while they may legitimately like all the studio albums that KISS has released, they are still essentially saying what's good enough for KISS, isn't good enough for any other rock band on the planet.
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Post by dute on Oct 23, 2011 21:50:07 GMT -5
Ask a Metallica fan who'll tell you anything after 91 has been shit.
I personally don't agree with it but so many people in the music biz have their share of shit and wonderful albums.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 23, 2011 21:58:45 GMT -5
Ask a Metallica fan who'll tell you anything after 91 has been shit. I personally don't agree with it but so many people in the music biz have their share of shit and wonderful albums. If one is able to really step back, drop the nostalgic love they have the band and truly be critical - it's fair to say that: Dynasty Unmasked The Elder Animalize Asylum Crazy Nights Hot In The Shade COS PC SB Are among the worst albums ever released by a major hard rock band. If KISS were a new band in the 80's or now, they NEVER would have made it. If the new VH album with Roth is of the quality of SB - they would be laughed out of the music industry. But because it's KISS, then the standards are lowered.
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Post by dute on Oct 23, 2011 22:10:44 GMT -5
Ask a Metallica fan who'll tell you anything after 91 has been shit. I personally don't agree with it but so many people in the music biz have their share of shit and wonderful albums. If one is able to really step back, drop the nostalgic love they have the band and truly be critical - it's fair to say that: Dynasty Unmasked The Elder Animalize Asylum Crazy Nights Hot In The Shade COS PC SB Are among the worst albums ever released by a major hard rock band. If KISS were a new band in the 80's or now, they NEVER would have made it. If the new VH album with Roth is of the quality of SB - they would be laughed out of the music industry. But because it's KISS, then the standards are lowered. Wow. Really? Hey, if that's your opinion, that's fine. I'm just listening to what I like. Do they go down as some of the most memorable musical contributions? Probably not. Who cares? Dynasty is a great album to me - start to finish. Unmasked I love - even though I used to dislike it. Psycho Circus - half of that album I think is great. Asylum is another album I loathed but I have grown to really love it. I like Sonic Boom. Don't get me wrong, the band were lost in the 80s and following on what from what bands like JBJ were doing, and for all the cheesy crap they gave us, they also delivered some awesome tunes. Aside from the music, for people these albums have memories attached to them. The soundtrack of their lives, if you will. I doubt they're thinking about 'musical standards'.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 23, 2011 22:14:35 GMT -5
I disagree about these three. I think Dynasty and Unmasked are great albums and The Elder was very good (irrespective of which style Kiss music you were expecting). When you say great albums, can you elaborate on what makes it so great? I mean to go from Alive 2 Side 4 to Dynasty, where the album is essentially the solo albums under one actual album - I don't know how great it can actually be as a KISS album. If KISS actually released an album like Creatures years before they did - they would have been better off. Dynasty should have been a kick ass hard rock album. Not a wimp fest pop-disco album with numerous songs that shouldn't even be on the album.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 23, 2011 22:18:15 GMT -5
If one is able to really step back, drop the nostalgic love they have the band and truly be critical - it's fair to say that: Dynasty Unmasked The Elder Animalize Asylum Crazy Nights Hot In The Shade COS PC SB Are among the worst albums ever released by a major hard rock band. If KISS were a new band in the 80's or now, they NEVER would have made it. If the new VH album with Roth is of the quality of SB - they would be laughed out of the music industry. But because it's KISS, then the standards are lowered. Wow. Really? Hey, if that's your opinion, that's fine. I'm just listening to what I like. Do they go down as some of the most memorable musical contributions? Probably not. Who cares? Dynasty is a great album to me - start to finish. Unmasked I love - even though I used to dislike it. Psycho Circus - half of that album I think is great. Asylum is another album I loathed but I have grown to really love it. I like Sonic Boom. Don't get me wrong, the band were lost in the 80s and following on what from what bands like JBJ were doing, and for all the cheesy crap they gave us, they also delivered some awesome tunes. Aside from the music, for people these albums have memories attached to them. The soundtrack of their lives, if you will. I doubt they're thinking about 'musical standards'. That's my point - if people like these albums, it certainly has nothing to do with the quality of the songs, but is more about the memories they had at the time and KISS nostalgia. If KISS came out today, I don't think these same people would be blown away by Dynasty and Unmasked or the later 80's KISS albums.
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Post by dute on Oct 23, 2011 22:28:35 GMT -5
So what say you of fans (like me) who didn't actually even know about KISS musically or listen to the music back then, who still enjoy those albums?
Sorry, but there are people out there who enjoyed a fun and catchy pop/rock song like Crazy Nights. If you don't like it, that's fine.
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