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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 18:18:37 GMT -5
No I prefer 50/50 or at least something remotely comparable, which the FAQ and your podcasts are absolutely not. It's also not the other side of the coin. Critical debate and discussion is actually normal. It's fanboys and sheep that are the extreme. so when we had the round table on the "Unmasked" Album and 2 out of 5 people were not fans...that is not enough? I have went on record time and time again as saying that I disliked the "HITS" album with the exception of "Forever" I guess that is not enough. I could go on, but what is the point. I tend to talk about the things that I enjoy that the band has done. The rest, I kind of let go. I am glad for the entertainment that all members of KISS have given me. It has been a fun ride. Out of 50+ episdoes, I don't think it's odd for me to suggest that you have ONE episode where you talk about KISS and their entire career on a critical level of mistakes they made or albums they shouldn't have done, things you may have all disagreed with KISS doing or whatever.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 18:24:59 GMT -5
I don't think being an extremely casual KISS fan these days makes anyone a sheep. I wouldn't say that KISS something you discuss casually, you obsess over it, you can't let it go. My definition of a sheep , is someone that hates something and can't/won't leave the pasture. Like one of the slaves who wouldn't leave after being granted freedom...Fits. Sounds like a fan. Having said that, I like to discuss and debate KISS. There are people on the FAQ that have said all they listen to is KISS. There are plenty of people there that support KISS 100%, even going as far as saying that they would support KISS 2.0, because Gene and Paul give it their blessing and are behind it. I would check out KISS 2.0, I will either like it or dislike it based on it's own merit. Where am I obsessing about KISS? Before I left the FAQ - I hardly ever spoke about KISS and was mostly on the non-KISS side with Blackwell. I hardly talk about KISS here either, besides a few threads. Nothing obsessive at all.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 18:35:50 GMT -5
so when we had the round table on the "Unmasked" Album and 2 out of 5 people were not fans...that is not enough? I have went on record time and time again as saying that I disliked the "HITS" album with the exception of "Forever" I guess that is not enough. I could go on, but what is the point. I tend to talk about the things that I enjoy that the band has done. The rest, I kind of let go. I am glad for the entertainment that all members of KISS have given me. It has been a fun ride. Out of 50+ episdoes, I don't think it's odd for me to suggest that you have ONE episode where you talk about KISS and their entire career on a critical level of mistakes they made or albums they shouldn't have done, things you may have all disagreed with KISS doing or whatever. every time we discuss an album, there are differing opinions. For example, I loved the song "Take Me", Gary is not a fan and says it was better when it was "Got Love for Sale". Every misstep and great thing has and will continued to be discussed pro and con. I f we did an episode on what we didn't like about KISS, it might be a short one, since we are fans. But make no mistake, we do disagree and we do have people on that disagree with us as well. Everyone has an opinion. and unless someone is a bitter cunt, chances are they will find their opinion on the show. Our fan mail (pro and con) back that up.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 18:37:12 GMT -5
I never said it was unacceptable. My position has always been that those who are critical of KISS for whatever reason are just as valid as those that want to celebrate the band. The critcal voices are just as important and are needed just as much as the fans that want talk about how much they love KISS. I love Unmasked. I always have. It's been said I'm not a 'real Kiss fan' and I have been called a 'Kiss sheep' for this. As long as I like what I like, with no apologies, and accept others will not like it, why is a critical voice 'needed'? I agree FV...but when it comes to my enjoyment of something, other's opinions mean nothing.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 18:42:01 GMT -5
I never said it was unacceptable. My position has always been that those who are critical of KISS for whatever reason are just as valid as those that want to celebrate the band. The critcal voices are just as important and are needed just as much as the fans that want talk about how much they love KISS. I love Unmasked. I always have. It's been said I'm not a 'real Kiss fan' and I have been called a 'Kiss sheep' for this. As long as I like what I like, with no apologies, and accept others will not like it, why is a critical voice 'needed'? Because it's incredibly important to have the pro and con of any discussion present, no matter what the topic is. That's why the critical voice is so needed amongst the celebratory KISS fans of the FAQ. It would be the same if someone had a forum dedicated to bashing KISS - the ones that love KISS would be needed there as well.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 18:44:44 GMT -5
Out of 50+ episdoes, I don't think it's odd for me to suggest that you have ONE episode where you talk about KISS and their entire career on a critical level of mistakes they made or albums they shouldn't have done, things you may have all disagreed with KISS doing or whatever. every time we discuss an album, there are differing opinions. For example, I loved the song "Take Me", Gary is not a fan and says it was better when it was "Got Love for Sale". Every misstep and great thing has and will continued to be discussed pro and con. I f we did an episode on what we didn't like about KISS, it might be a short one, since we are fans. But make no mistake, we do disagree and we do have people on that disagree with us as well. Everyone has an opinion. and unless someone is a bitter cunt, chances are they will find their opinion on the show. Our fan mail (pro and con) back that up. I am a KISS fan too, but I am capable of spending at least an hour talking with others about the downside of KISS. Just as much as I could spend an hour or more talking about the stuff I love about KISS.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 18:45:53 GMT -5
I love Unmasked. I always have. It's been said I'm not a 'real Kiss fan' and I have been called a 'Kiss sheep' for this. As long as I like what I like, with no apologies, and accept others will not like it, why is a critical voice 'needed'? Because it's incredibly important to have the pro and con of any discussion present, no matter what the topic is. That's why the critical voice is so needed amongst the celebratory KISS fans of the FAQ. It would be the same if someone had a forum dedicated to bashing KISS - the ones that love KISS would be needed there as well. As I have pointed out, there is discussion and differing points of view. So what has been learned here. Real Sheep can't or won't find their way out of the pasture, they will just lay in their own piss whining about how horrible it is. They stick around until they are slaughtered.... Great plan.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 18:47:32 GMT -5
every time we discuss an album, there are differing opinions. For example, I loved the song "Take Me", Gary is not a fan and says it was better when it was "Got Love for Sale". Every misstep and great thing has and will continued to be discussed pro and con. I f we did an episode on what we didn't like about KISS, it might be a short one, since we are fans. But make no mistake, we do disagree and we do have people on that disagree with us as well. Everyone has an opinion. and unless someone is a bitter cunt, chances are they will find their opinion on the show. Our fan mail (pro and con) back that up. I am a KISS fan too, but I am capable of spending at least an hour talking with others about the downside of KISS. Just as much as I could spend an hour or more talking about the stuff I love about KISS. and we do that almost every episode...do you want a cookie? You should get a t shirt that says "I am a KISS fan too".
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Post by dute on Oct 24, 2011 18:48:31 GMT -5
I love Unmasked. I always have. It's been said I'm not a 'real Kiss fan' and I have been called a 'Kiss sheep' for this. As long as I like what I like, with no apologies, and accept others will not like it, why is a critical voice 'needed'? Because it's incredibly important to have the pro and con of any discussion present, no matter what the topic is. That's why the critical voice is so needed amongst the celebratory KISS fans of the FAQ. It would be the same if someone had a forum dedicated to bashing KISS - the ones that love KISS would be needed there as well. I thought you didn't care about the FAQ? It's okay. It's not all sunshine over there.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 18:50:00 GMT -5
Because it's incredibly important to have the pro and con of any discussion present, no matter what the topic is. That's why the critical voice is so needed amongst the celebratory KISS fans of the FAQ. It would be the same if someone had a forum dedicated to bashing KISS - the ones that love KISS would be needed there as well. I thought you didn't care about the FAQ? It's okay. It's not all sunshine over there. \ He will tell us, once again, how he doesn't care about the FAQ ;D
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 18:53:59 GMT -5
Because it's incredibly important to have the pro and con of any discussion present, no matter what the topic is. That's why the critical voice is so needed amongst the celebratory KISS fans of the FAQ. It would be the same if someone had a forum dedicated to bashing KISS - the ones that love KISS would be needed there as well. I have no issue with people discussing the pros and cons, but when those who do like it are branded sheep because they enjoy saying so with other fans, that's bullshit. Maybe instead of "Sheep" , we could go "Get it"/"Don't get it"...or "Fan"/"Critic"
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 18:54:31 GMT -5
I prefer "Fan"/"Fan" myself.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 20:00:05 GMT -5
I am a KISS fan too, but I am capable of spending at least an hour talking with others about the downside of KISS. Just as much as I could spend an hour or more talking about the stuff I love about KISS. and we do that almost every episode...do you want a cookie? You should get a t shirt that says "I am a KISS fan too". Saying that you don't like a particular album as much as Gary does, isn't at all what I am talking about. There is nothing even remotely controversial about the opinions spewed on your podkisst. It is generally speaking masterbatory. Have me on as a guest and see the difference.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 20:03:17 GMT -5
Because it's incredibly important to have the pro and con of any discussion present, no matter what the topic is. That's why the critical voice is so needed amongst the celebratory KISS fans of the FAQ. It would be the same if someone had a forum dedicated to bashing KISS - the ones that love KISS would be needed there as well. I thought you didn't care about the FAQ? It's okay. It's not all sunshine over there. I don't care about the FAQ or any website for that matter. It's entertainment. But ultimately, I feel that it's important for both sides to be heard no matter what it is. Just like I want you to be heard here.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 20:03:57 GMT -5
Because it's incredibly important to have the pro and con of any discussion present, no matter what the topic is. That's why the critical voice is so needed amongst the celebratory KISS fans of the FAQ. It would be the same if someone had a forum dedicated to bashing KISS - the ones that love KISS would be needed there as well. I have no issue with people discussing the pros and cons, but when those who do like it are branded sheep because they enjoy saying so with other fans, that's bullshit. I never said you were a sheep. I am not talking about you.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 20:11:48 GMT -5
I thought you didn't care about the FAQ? It's okay. It's not all sunshine over there. \ He will tell us, once again, how he doesn't care about the FAQ ;D I haven't posted there for two months now. We both know that I could easily keep coming back if I so wanted to or if I actually did care - but I don't. Part of the reason why I started the forum in the first place with Blackwell, was because I wanted to stop posting at a place where I didn't agree with the general stance of the board.
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Post by dute on Oct 24, 2011 20:25:19 GMT -5
I have no issue with people discussing the pros and cons, but when those who do like it are branded sheep because they enjoy saying so with other fans, that's bullshit. I never said you were a sheep. I am not talking about you. That's not what he's getting at, HM. The point here is that if there is some sort of clash of opinions, someone is labelled a sheep. That part of the the conversation is irrelevant. Discuss the issue at hand without the petty little insults. This is something that has been talked about repeatedly. The conversation and debate is awesome but when people start throwing in the 'nutswingers' and 'sheep' comments it throws the conversation off track. That is not livening up the place or making things equal. Take this thread as an example. Great discussion, no one is being snarky and throwing insults. Unfortunately people have to get down to the 'fuck you' side of things and it's boring. Even on non-KISS related stuff.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 20:28:55 GMT -5
I never said you were a sheep. I am not talking about you. That's not what he's getting at, HM. The point here is that if there is some sort of clash of opinions, someone is labelled a sheep. That part of the the conversation is irrelevant. Discuss the issue at hand without the petty little insults. This is something that has been talked about repeatedly. The conversation and debate is awesome but when people start throwing in the 'nutswingers' and 'sheep' comments it throws the conversation off track. That is not livening up the place or making things equal. Take this thread as an example. Great discussion, no one is being snarky and throwing insults. Unfortunately people have to get down to the 'fuck you' side of things and it's boring. Even on non-KISS related stuff. Well just to clarify as far as I am concerned, I don't think because you love Dynasty and because FV loves Unmaked, that this qualifies you as sheep in any sense of the word. You are not at all the people that I am talking about when I have used the sheep.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 20:40:57 GMT -5
I never said you were a sheep. I am not talking about you. I know. I was using my situation as an example to make my point. ] Well I personally have never branded someone a sheep because they like a certain album that I don't like. Besides, has anyone officially called you a sheep?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 20:44:05 GMT -5
I know. I was using my situation as an example to make my point. ] Well I personally have never branded someone a sheep because they like a certain album that I don't like. Besides, has anyone officially called you a sheep? Folks have called him a Sheep, bottom line, anyone that doesn't complain like you do is labeled a sheep by someone. It is bullshit.
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Post by R&ROVER on Oct 24, 2011 20:44:27 GMT -5
Good point, EXCEPT that Kiss is still making music relative to other Kiss music. How do you really compare Kiss to someone else and vice versa? I don't really think WS or Maiden are so much making ground-breaking albums as much as they're making GOOD WS and Maiden albums. Really all of that comes down to taste. Look at reviews on Amazon.com, for instance. Fan reaction to all of these albums mentioned plus the latest from Rush, Mr. Big, RHCP, etc....all vary. However, they've all garnered more positive than not reviews from fans. Sonic Boom: 76% reviews fall on the 3-star (of 5) or better end of things. A full 37% -- better than 1 in 3 -- rate it a 5-star. Forevermore: 95% of fan reviews rate this as a 3-star or better, with a solid 64% chiming in with a perfect 5-star review. The Final Frontier: 84% of fans give this a 3-star or better, with 52% giving it a full 5-stars. While they vary, they're all pretty comparable. I certainly wouldn't call Sonic Boom a fan flop based on reaction here. And critical reviews were actually more positive this time than for Psycho Circus...and the best reviews Kiss has gotten for a studio album since Revenge, based on the reviews I read. Which one of these is better is merely a matter of pure opinion, but I think to proclaim or insinuate that Kiss made a poor album according to fan response is a bit misleading. I've read MOSTLY good reviews. All of these bands are better than Kiss in terms of musicianship, but none of them exactly share Kiss's style either. Rush doesn't write Kiss songs. Even WS, maybe the closest of this lot, does MORE with their music....multiple leads, often epic songs. When does Kiss do 'epic' all that often? I can count on one hand. But does simpler make it worse? In Rush's case does more complicated and layered make it necessarily better? I think it's just merely your opinion that the new(est) Kiss album isn't as good. You could probably make a good case for few Kiss albums being as good as Forevermore if you wanted to and you wouldn't necessarily be wrong so much as you'd "just think so." Personally I think a LOT of heritage acts have made solid albums of late and that includes Kiss. This is exactly what I think is so ridiculous about Blackwell's heritage condemnations because I think many of these bands are making very STRONG albums in their respective catalogues... I know you are sort of trying to play both sides of the fence here, because while certain fans may love SB, I think we both know that KISS fans will give 5 stars to their worst album or the Peter Criss solo album. It's been said long before that KISS reviews by fans can barely be trusted, because there is just too much fanboy worship. It's almost like those movie reviews from less than reputable sources where they give 5 stars to some pathetic comedy with Rob Schneider calling it "hilarious!!!". KISS have the ability to do so much more than they do and that's my problem with them. If Ezrin produced SB, the majority of the songs on the album wouldn't even be accepted by Ezrin and ultimately the album would be so much better. I don't give a fuck about co-writes with Ezrin or anything like that. What I do care about is Paul Stanley's incredibly weak songwriting skills and pathetic excuse for production. I simply can't understand what the fuck happened to him. At least Gene is still there for the most part. I truly don't think SB even remotely compares to ANY long time hard rock band making new music today and I am sure if we were to be shooting the shit in some bar without the KISS forum audience, you probably would admit that SB is probably the weakest or one of the weakest album in terms of old bands making new albums, even if you still like SB for what it is. I certainly hope to proven wrong on Monster, but with Paul in charge - I can't help think it will be another wasted opportunity. Well what are you but not another fan? What makes your criticism of SB any more valid than someone who gives it 4-stars? Are only the low rated reviews valid?
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Post by dute on Oct 24, 2011 20:48:03 GMT -5
That's not what he's getting at, HM. The point here is that if there is some sort of clash of opinions, someone is labelled a sheep. That part of the the conversation is irrelevant. Discuss the issue at hand without the petty little insults. This is something that has been talked about repeatedly. The conversation and debate is awesome but when people start throwing in the 'nutswingers' and 'sheep' comments it throws the conversation off track. That is not livening up the place or making things equal. Take this thread as an example. Great discussion, no one is being snarky and throwing insults. Unfortunately people have to get down to the 'fuck you' side of things and it's boring. Even on non-KISS related stuff. Well just to clarify as far as I am concerned, I don't think because you love Dynasty and because FV loves Unmaked, that this qualifies you as sheep in any sense of the word. You are not at all the people that I am talking about when I have used the sheep. Understood and I know it's not directed at me, but even if people are sheep and if someone considered me one, it's not relevant in a conversation. Like I said earlier; we're all sheep in one way or another. We follow or support something.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 20:48:08 GMT -5
and we do that almost every episode...do you want a cookie? You should get a t shirt that says "I am a KISS fan too". Saying that you don't like a particular album as much as Gary does, isn't at all what I am talking about. There is nothing even remotely controversial about the opinions spewed on your podkisst. It is generally speaking masterbatory. Have me on as a guest and see the difference. Why would we do that? We would like people who still care passionately about the band. and chances are, we would ask you what you like :lol Again, I think Gary is wrong on many of his opinions and he probably feels the same way about me. At the end of the day, we both enjoy KISS. Your posts are generally speaking masturbatory, except you are using sand paper instead of lubricant. And again..it is spelled "masturbatory". Support what you love, I do
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 20:49:56 GMT -5
I know you are sort of trying to play both sides of the fence here, because while certain fans may love SB, I think we both know that KISS fans will give 5 stars to their worst album or the Peter Criss solo album. It's been said long before that KISS reviews by fans can barely be trusted, because there is just too much fanboy worship. It's almost like those movie reviews from less than reputable sources where they give 5 stars to some pathetic comedy with Rob Schneider calling it "hilarious!!!". KISS have the ability to do so much more than they do and that's my problem with them. If Ezrin produced SB, the majority of the songs on the album wouldn't even be accepted by Ezrin and ultimately the album would be so much better. I don't give a fuck about co-writes with Ezrin or anything like that. What I do care about is Paul Stanley's incredibly weak songwriting skills and pathetic excuse for production. I simply can't understand what the fuck happened to him. At least Gene is still there for the most part. I truly don't think SB even remotely compares to ANY long time hard rock band making new music today and I am sure if we were to be shooting the shit in some bar without the KISS forum audience, you probably would admit that SB is probably the weakest or one of the weakest album in terms of old bands making new albums, even if you still like SB for what it is. I certainly hope to proven wrong on Monster, but with Paul in charge - I can't help think it will be another wasted opportunity. Well what are you but not another fan? What makes your criticism of SB any more valid than someone who gives it 4-stars? Are only the low rated reviews valid? Working in the film industry, I am surrounded by people who hype all fucking day. I hate people who hype. I prefer people who can say THIS IS SHIT. I tend to prefer critics who are harsh and critical as opposed to critics who seem to love everything, so for me - yes, someone's negative review of SB is more valid to me over someone's glowing 4 star review. If I wanted to just read good reviews, I know where to go.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 20:53:42 GMT -5
Saying that you don't like a particular album as much as Gary does, isn't at all what I am talking about. There is nothing even remotely controversial about the opinions spewed on your podkisst. It is generally speaking masterbatory. Have me on as a guest and see the difference. Why would we do that? We would like people who still care passionately about the band. and chances are, we would ask you what you like :lol Again, I think Gary is wrong on many of his opinions and he probably feels the same way about me. At the end of the day, we both enjoy KISS. Your posts are generally speaking masturbatory, except you are using sand paper instead of lubricant. And again..it is spelled "masturbatory". Support what you love, I do And I could answer what I like. I am also capable of talking about KISS critically as well. But obviously that's not the kind of thing you want to be doing with your podkisst's and that's fine. I personally just can't listen to KISS kumbaya, but I know you have many fans. So it's all good.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 20:56:26 GMT -5
] Well I personally have never branded someone a sheep because they like a certain album that I don't like. Besides, has anyone officially called you a sheep? Folks have called him a Sheep, bottom line, anyone that doesn't complain like you do is labeled a sheep by someone. It is bullshit. Well that has nothing to do with me, since FV isn't a sheep as far as I am concerned when it comes to using the word sheep to describe KISS fans.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 20:56:37 GMT -5
Why would we do that? We would like people who still care passionately about the band. and chances are, we would ask you what you like :lol Again, I think Gary is wrong on many of his opinions and he probably feels the same way about me. At the end of the day, we both enjoy KISS. Your posts are generally speaking masturbatory, except you are using sand paper instead of lubricant. And again..it is spelled "masturbatory". Support what you love, I do And I could answer what I like. I am also capable of talking about KISS critically as well. But obviously that's not the kind of thing you want to be doing with your podkisst's and that's fine. I personally just can't listen to KISS kumbaya, but I know you have many fans. So it's all good. I believe that I talk about KISS critically, I believe Gary and the many many guest we have had on the show do as well. Again, the round tables are the best, because we do have differing opinions. We feel we reflect the opinions of most KISS fans.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 20:58:05 GMT -5
Folks have called him a Sheep, bottom line, anyone that doesn't complain like you do is labeled a sheep by someone. It is bullshit. Well that has nothing to do with me, since FV isn't a sheep as far as I am concerned when it comes to using the word sheep to describe KISS fans. That's nice, FV, Dute and myself have tried to explain it to you, I understand that appreciating other opinions and feelings can be difficult at times.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 21:00:38 GMT -5
Well that has nothing to do with me, since FV isn't a sheep as far as I am concerned when it comes to using the word sheep to describe KISS fans. That's nice, FV, Dute and myself have tried to explain it to you, I understand that appreciating other opinions and feelings can be difficult at times. I don't need anything explained to me. It's not my fault if the word sheep has expanded to mean further things at the FAQ through OTHER posters who are not me. I have only used it for reasons which I personally found to be valid.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 21:56:54 GMT -5
] Well I personally have never branded someone a sheep because they like a certain album that I don't like. Besides, has anyone officially called you a sheep? Yes. As I stated earlier, I have been called a sheep (and not a real Kiss fan) for liking Unmasked. I have been called a sheep because I had the gall to NOT condemn Thayer's place in the band. I was told that means I 'accept' Thayer and therefore that makes me 'not a real Kiss fan'. I have been called a Frehley Apologist. I have been called a Gene Apologist. I have been called a Thayer lover. It seems I am many things to many people. Well I never saw you as a sheep.
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