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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 13:15:04 GMT -5
Every other band I listen to makes albums that blow away what KISS is doing has done. Is it because they are better bands? Not necessarily. It's because those bands take album making seriously. KISS don't. That's the difference for me. What bands that have been around 35+ years are still making good albums? Very short list indeed. now that is a good topic.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 13:15:06 GMT -5
KISS were making bad albums long before 35 years rolled around. from day one according to some. Well that wouldn't be me, but yes it has be said.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 13:15:36 GMT -5
The sheep has its hater counterpart. Hey Man has duly pointed out that he doesn't consider himself that and I'll take his word, but there is the anti-sheep as well and I'm not sure that's any better. I refuse to judge Kiss based purely on my worst thoughts of them right now. Like with all phases, each one has its pluses and minuses...to varying degrees. That I not only didn't hate but rather really enjoyed Sonic Boom is my biggest positive about this lineup, aside from their relative tightness of playing. To me this is just another one of many Kiss lineups with the added aggravation of the "playing other roles" aspect, which I don't enjoy. Sonic Boom is far better to me than MOST of their 80s output, which I think is almost unfairly praised. Kulick didn't even start to become good until 90s Kiss (IMO) and Carr remains a sentimental and personal favorite, even though as a player I think he was overrated and pretty much a one-note drummer: power only. Nothing compares to the magic of Kiss in their prime to me, but I'm long past mourning it. It's been a revolving door of "others" for nearly 32 years now. I'm pretty used to it. I agree with most of this.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 13:17:17 GMT -5
from day one according to some. Well that wouldn't be me, but yes it has be said. It really is subjective. one man's trash is another man's treasure.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 13:21:20 GMT -5
What bands that have been around 35+ years are still making good albums? Very short list indeed. now that is a good topic. I don't think compiling a list of bands/artists that have been around for 35 years and still making good albums is really that difficult especially if you happen to compare those albums to Sonic Boom. I would say MOST if not all are making better music over what KISS is doing. Most people know that I am not the biggest fan of Slip Of The Tongue and I wish Steve Vai was never in the band, but GTBB and Forevermore blows away Sonic Boom in every single possible category all these years later from 1989.
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Post by Justlee on Oct 24, 2011 15:49:09 GMT -5
I disagree about the WS albums being better than SB. Now if we were talking about PC....maybe.
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Post by R&ROVER on Oct 24, 2011 16:24:20 GMT -5
now that is a good topic. I don't think compiling a list of bands/artists that have been around for 35 years and still making good albums is really that difficult especially if you happen to compare those albums to Sonic Boom. I would say MOST if not all are making better music over what KISS is doing. Most people know that I am not the biggest fan of Slip Of The Tongue and I wish Steve Vai was never in the band, but GTBB and Forevermore blows away Sonic Boom in every single possible category all these years later from 1989. Good point, EXCEPT that Kiss is still making music relative to other Kiss music. How do you really compare Kiss to someone else and vice versa? I don't really think WS or Maiden are so much making ground-breaking albums as much as they're making GOOD WS and Maiden albums. Really all of that comes down to taste. Look at reviews on Amazon.com, for instance. Fan reaction to all of these albums mentioned plus the latest from Rush, Mr. Big, RHCP, etc....all vary. However, they've all garnered more positive than not reviews from fans. Sonic Boom: 76% reviews fall on the 3-star (of 5) or better end of things. A full 37% -- better than 1 in 3 -- rate it a 5-star. Forevermore: 95% of fan reviews rate this as a 3-star or better, with a solid 64% chiming in with a perfect 5-star review. The Final Frontier: 84% of fans give this a 3-star or better, with 52% giving it a full 5-stars. While they vary, they're all pretty comparable. I certainly wouldn't call Sonic Boom a fan flop based on reaction here. And critical reviews were actually more positive this time than for Psycho Circus...and the best reviews Kiss has gotten for a studio album since Revenge, based on the reviews I read. Which one of these is better is merely a matter of pure opinion, but I think to proclaim or insinuate that Kiss made a poor album according to fan response is a bit misleading. I've read MOSTLY good reviews. All of these bands are better than Kiss in terms of musicianship, but none of them exactly share Kiss's style either. Rush doesn't write Kiss songs. Even WS, maybe the closest of this lot, does MORE with their music....multiple leads, often epic songs. When does Kiss do 'epic' all that often? I can count on one hand. But does simpler make it worse? In Rush's case does more complicated and layered make it necessarily better? I think it's just merely your opinion that the new(est) Kiss album isn't as good. You could probably make a good case for few Kiss albums being as good as Forevermore if you wanted to and you wouldn't necessarily be wrong so much as you'd "just think so." Personally I think a LOT of heritage acts have made solid albums of late and that includes Kiss. This is exactly what I think is so ridiculous about Blackwell's heritage condemnations because I think many of these bands are making very STRONG albums in their respective catalogues...
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 17:14:43 GMT -5
I don't think compiling a list of bands/artists that have been around for 35 years and still making good albums is really that difficult especially if you happen to compare those albums to Sonic Boom. I would say MOST if not all are making better music over what KISS is doing. Most people know that I am not the biggest fan of Slip Of The Tongue and I wish Steve Vai was never in the band, but GTBB and Forevermore blows away Sonic Boom in every single possible category all these years later from 1989. Good point, EXCEPT that Kiss is still making music relative to other Kiss music. How do you really compare Kiss to someone else and vice versa? I don't really think WS or Maiden are so much making ground-breaking albums as much as they're making GOOD WS and Maiden albums. Really all of that comes down to taste. Look at reviews on Amazon.com, for instance. Fan reaction to all of these albums mentioned plus the latest from Rush, Mr. Big, RHCP, etc....all vary. However, they've all garnered more positive than not reviews from fans. Sonic Boom: 76% reviews fall on the 3-star (of 5) or better end of things. A full 37% -- better than 1 in 3 -- rate it a 5-star. Forevermore: 95% of fan reviews rate this as a 3-star or better, with a solid 64% chiming in with a perfect 5-star review. The Final Frontier: 84% of fans give this a 3-star or better, with 52% giving it a full 5-stars. While they vary, they're all pretty comparable. I certainly wouldn't call Sonic Boom a fan flop based on reaction here. And critical reviews were actually more positive this time than for Psycho Circus...and the best reviews Kiss has gotten for a studio album since Revenge, based on the reviews I read. Which one of these is better is merely a matter of pure opinion, but I think to proclaim or insinuate that Kiss made a poor album according to fan response is a bit misleading. I've read MOSTLY good reviews. All of these bands are better than Kiss in terms of musicianship, but none of them exactly share Kiss's style either. Rush doesn't write Kiss songs. Even WS, maybe the closest of this lot, does MORE with their music....multiple leads, often epic songs. When does Kiss do 'epic' all that often? I can count on one hand. But does simpler make it worse? In Rush's case does more complicated and layered make it necessarily better? I think it's just merely your opinion that the new(est) Kiss album isn't as good. You could probably make a good case for few Kiss albums being as good as Forevermore if you wanted to and you wouldn't necessarily be wrong so much as you'd "just think so." Personally I think a LOT of heritage acts have made solid albums of late and that includes Kiss. This is exactly what I think is so ridiculous about Blackwell's heritage condemnations because I think many of these bands are making very STRONG albums in their respective catalogues... I know you are sort of trying to play both sides of the fence here, because while certain fans may love SB, I think we both know that KISS fans will give 5 stars to their worst album or the Peter Criss solo album. It's been said long before that KISS reviews by fans can barely be trusted, because there is just too much fanboy worship. It's almost like those movie reviews from less than reputable sources where they give 5 stars to some pathetic comedy with Rob Schneider calling it "hilarious!!!". KISS have the ability to do so much more than they do and that's my problem with them. If Ezrin produced SB, the majority of the songs on the album wouldn't even be accepted by Ezrin and ultimately the album would be so much better. I don't give a fuck about co-writes with Ezrin or anything like that. What I do care about is Paul Stanley's incredibly weak songwriting skills and pathetic excuse for production. I simply can't understand what the fuck happened to him. At least Gene is still there for the most part. I truly don't think SB even remotely compares to ANY long time hard rock band making new music today and I am sure if we were to be shooting the shit in some bar without the KISS forum audience, you probably would admit that SB is probably the weakest or one of the weakest album in terms of old bands making new albums, even if you still like SB for what it is. I certainly hope to proven wrong on Monster, but with Paul in charge - I can't help think it will be another wasted opportunity.
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Post by dute on Oct 24, 2011 17:32:50 GMT -5
In fact, there was a time when I would defend anything KISS. ...at one point making you a sheep? ![](http://s2.images.proboards.com/laugh.gif)
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 17:36:21 GMT -5
I certainly hope to proven wrong on Monster No offence, but I find that difficult to believe. Why is it so hard to believe? Why wouldn't I want KISS to kick my ass with a new album. While I may be an incredibly disappointed fan, there is still a fan deep down inside of me somewhere. If Revenge II came out tomorrow produced by Ezin, I am sure I would probably love it.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 17:37:07 GMT -5
In fact, there was a time when I would defend anything KISS. ...at one point making you a sheep? ![](http://s2.images.proboards.com/laugh.gif) Yes, I was a sheep at one point - but I finally woke up the reality of just how shitty KISS can be.
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Post by dute on Oct 24, 2011 17:41:45 GMT -5
...at one point making you a sheep? ![](http://s2.images.proboards.com/laugh.gif) Yes, I was a sheep at one point - but I finally woke up the reality of just how shitty KISS can be. Which is funny - considering your stance now. I think KISS is fucking awesome. But I know they can be crappy at times too. No doubt. I'll just focus on what I love. No need to dwell on what bugs me about them. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 17:41:55 GMT -5
...at one point making you a sheep? ![](http://s2.images.proboards.com/laugh.gif) Yes, I was a sheep at one point - but I finally woke up the reality of just how shitty KISS can be. why would you stick around? That is the part, I don't get, what does KISS (or any band) owe you, you buy an album or you don't, why let it consume so much of your time?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 17:42:57 GMT -5
Yes, I was a sheep at one point - but I finally woke up the reality of just how shitty KISS can be. Which is funny - considering your stance now. I think KISS is fucking awesome. But I know they can be crappy at times too. No doubt. I'll just focus on what I love. No need to dwell on what bugs me about them. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) Great post. I agree 100%
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 17:44:22 GMT -5
You have missed a bunch then. Many times we disagree on the show, but then again, it is not "Politically Correct". I don't understand why people are critical of people liking what they like. It really is as simple as that. Because it's more interesting and entertaining over everyone circle jerking each other over how great something is. Do you prefer circle jerks where guys sit around crying and bitching? because that is the other side of the coin.
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Post by dute on Oct 24, 2011 17:46:58 GMT -5
Which is funny - considering your stance now. I think KISS is fucking awesome. But I know they can be crappy at times too. No doubt. I'll just focus on what I love. No need to dwell on what bugs me about them. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) Great post. I agree 100% ![8-)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cool.png)
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 17:50:54 GMT -5
Yes, I was a sheep at one point - but I finally woke up the reality of just how shitty KISS can be. why would you stick around? That is the part, I don't get, what does KISS (or any band) owe you, you buy an album or you don't, why let it consume so much of your time? Because I want KISS to deliver the goods finally and impress the fuck out of me, which I think they have the potential to do. As long as there is still a fan inside of me, I will stick around. It's the same thing with Stallone - I am a huge fan, but he has done a ton of movies that I just cringe at and find embarrassing, but it doesn't negate the fact that I am still going to go see every movie he does. It's not love or hate something. There is middle ground.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 17:52:58 GMT -5
why would you stick around? That is the part, I don't get, what does KISS (or any band) owe you, you buy an album or you don't, why let it consume so much of your time? Because I want KISS to deliver the goods finally and impress the fuck out of me, which I think they have the potential to do. As long as there is still a fan inside of me, I will stick around. It's the same thing with Stallone - I am a huge fan, but he has done a ton of movies that I just cringe at and find embarrassing, but it doesn't negate the fact that I am still going to go see every movie he does. It's not love or hate something. There is middle ground. agreed 100% ...so you are still a "sheep" then since you will stick around...you just drag your feet when you give them your money. I can't think of anyone that supports any band 100%.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 17:54:03 GMT -5
Because it's more interesting and entertaining over everyone circle jerking each other over how great something is. Do you prefer circle jerks where guys sit around crying and bitching? because that is the other side of the coin. No I prefer 50/50 or at least something remotely comparable, which the FAQ and your podcasts are absolutely not. It's also not the other side of the coin. Critical debate and discussion is actually normal. It's fanboys and sheep that are the extreme.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 17:57:29 GMT -5
Do you prefer circle jerks where guys sit around crying and bitching? because that is the other side of the coin. No I prefer 50/50 or at least something remotely comparable, which the FAQ and your podcasts are absolutely not. It's also not the other side of the coin. Critical debate and discussion is actually normal. It's fanboys and sheep that are the extreme. so when we had the round table on the "Unmasked" Album and 2 out of 5 people were not fans...that is not enough? I have went on record time and time again as saying that I disliked the "HITS" album with the exception of "Forever" I guess that is not enough. I could go on, but what is the point. I tend to talk about the things that I enjoy that the band has done. The rest, I kind of let go. I am glad for the entertainment that all members of KISS have given me. It has been a fun ride.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 18:00:05 GMT -5
Because it's more interesting and entertaining over everyone circle jerking each other over how great something is. If someone believes something is great, why shouldn't they be able to express that as much as they like with other likeminded fans? What better place to do so than a fan site dedicated to the band they dig? Why is this so unacceptable that you have to post endlessly against them? God forbid someone be allowed to enjoy what they enjoy.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 18:05:05 GMT -5
Because I want KISS to deliver the goods finally and impress the fuck out of me, which I think they have the potential to do. As long as there is still a fan inside of me, I will stick around. It's the same thing with Stallone - I am a huge fan, but he has done a ton of movies that I just cringe at and find embarrassing, but it doesn't negate the fact that I am still going to go see every movie he does. It's not love or hate something. There is middle ground. agreed 100% ...so you are still a "sheep" then since you will stick around...you just drag your feet when you give them your money. I can't think of anyone that supports any band 100%. I don't think being an extremely casual KISS fan these days makes anyone a sheep. Assuming of course you know what sheep means. I haven't posted at all on the FAQ since opening this board and I haven't given them my money in years. Having said that, I like to discuss and debate KISS. There are people on the FAQ that have said all they listen to is KISS. There are plenty of people there that support KISS 100%, even going as far as saying that they would support KISS 2.0, because Gene and Paul give it their blessing and are behind it.
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Post by dute on Oct 24, 2011 18:05:50 GMT -5
Oh, well that was just uncalled for! ![:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/sad.png)
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Post by dute on Oct 24, 2011 18:07:07 GMT -5
agreed 100% ...so you are still a "sheep" then since you will stick around...you just drag your feet when you give them your money. I can't think of anyone that supports any band 100%. I don't think being an extremely casual KISS fan these days makes anyone a sheep. Assuming of course you know what sheep means. I haven't posted at all on the FAQ since opening this board and I haven't given them my money in years. Having said that, I like to discuss and debate KISS. There are people on the FAQ that have said all they listen to is KISS. There are plenty of people there that support KISS 100%, even going as far as saying that they would support KISS 2.0, because Gene and Paul give it their blessing and are behind it. Yeah and those 2 or 3 are teenagers and have yet to broaden their horizons. They're not 40 year old men.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 18:10:09 GMT -5
I don't think being an extremely casual KISS fan these days makes anyone a sheep. I wouldn't say that KISS something you discuss casually, you obsess over it, you can't let it go. Assuming of course you know what sheep means. My definition of a sheep , is someone that hates something and can't/won't leave the pasture. Like one of the slaves who wouldn't leave after being granted freedom...Fits. I haven't posted at all on the FAQ since opening this board and I haven't given them my money in years. Sounds like a fan. Having said that, I like to discuss and debate KISS. There are people on the FAQ that have said all they listen to is KISS. There are plenty of people there that support KISS 100%, even going as far as saying that they would support KISS 2.0, because Gene and Paul give it their blessing and are behind it. I would check out KISS 2.0, I will either like it or dislike it based on it's own merit.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 18:13:14 GMT -5
I don't think being an extremely casual KISS fan these days makes anyone a sheep. Assuming of course you know what sheep means. I haven't posted at all on the FAQ since opening this board and I haven't given them my money in years. Having said that, I like to discuss and debate KISS. There are people on the FAQ that have said all they listen to is KISS. There are plenty of people there that support KISS 100%, even going as far as saying that they would support KISS 2.0, because Gene and Paul give it their blessing and are behind it. Yeah and those 2 or 3 are teenagers and have yet to broaden their horizons. They're not 40 year old men. On the other hand, what does it matter, would it be any different than if all they listened to was Mozart? People like what they like. I have always believed that there is more than one crayon in the box. People can color how they like.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 18:13:33 GMT -5
Because it's more interesting and entertaining over everyone circle jerking each other over how great something is. If someone believes something is great, why shouldn't they be able to express that as much as they like with other likeminded fans? What better place to do so than a fan site dedicated to the band they dig? Why is this so unacceptable that you have to post endlessly against them? I never said it was unacceptable. My position has always been that those who are critical of KISS for whatever reason are just as valid as those that want to celebrate the band. The critcal voices are just as important and are needed just as much as the fans that want talk about how much they love KISS.
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Post by dute on Oct 24, 2011 18:14:46 GMT -5
Yeah and those 2 or 3 are teenagers and have yet to broaden their horizons. They're not 40 year old men. On the other hand, what does it matter, would it be any different than if all they listened to was Mozart? People like what they like. I have always believed that there is more than one crayon in the box. People can color how they like. Whilst I believe they should expand on what they listen to, at the same time I won't push them to try. If it makes them happy, cool.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 18:14:55 GMT -5
If someone believes something is great, why shouldn't they be able to express that as much as they like with other likeminded fans? What better place to do so than a fan site dedicated to the band they dig? Why is this so unacceptable that you have to post endlessly against them? I never said it was unacceptable. My position has always been that those who are critical of KISS for whatever reason are just as valid as those that want to celebrate the band. The critcal voices are just as important and are needed just as much as the fans that want talk about how much they love KISS. Ok...how nice for you. Bottom line, when I am listening to "ALIVE!" I really have no time for any asshole's critical voice ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 18:15:45 GMT -5
On the other hand, what does it matter, would it be any different than if all they listened to was Mozart? People like what they like. I have always believed that there is more than one crayon in the box. People can color how they like. Whilst I believe they should expand on what they listen to, at the same time I won't push them to try. If it makes them happy, cool. I love so much other music, There is no way I could understand just listening to KISS.
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