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Post by Justlee on Oct 23, 2011 22:29:06 GMT -5
Ask a Metallica fan who'll tell you anything after 91 has been shit. I personally don't agree with it but so many people in the music biz have their share of shit and wonderful albums. If one is able to really step back, drop the nostalgic love they have the band and truly be critical - it's fair to say that: Dynasty Unmasked The Elder Animalize Asylum Crazy Nights Hot In The Shade COS PC SB Are among the worst albums ever released by a major hard rock band. If KISS were a new band in the 80's or now, they NEVER would have made it. If the new VH album with Roth is of the quality of SB - they would be laughed out of the music industry. But because it's KISS, then the standards are lowered. The thing is...your opinions of those albums are only that....your opinions. COS is one of their best albums in my opinion. The Elder is good to me also. Dynasty I like too. You see, your opinion isn't the "end all, be all" or whatever the saying is. |
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 23, 2011 22:31:54 GMT -5
So what say you of fans (like me) who didn't actually even know about KISS musically or listen to the music back then, who still enjoy those albums? Sorry, but there are people out there who enjoyed a fun and catchy pop/rock song like Crazy Nights. If you don't like it, that's fine. But even if I like something, I can still admit when it's shit. There are a ton of bad movies that I like or that are guilty pleasures, but at the end of the day - despite my liking them regardless, I know deep down that they are crap and I can admit that. Sometimes we like crap, but I have no problem admitting that I like something that's crappy as opposed to pretending that it's great. |
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Post by Justlee on Oct 23, 2011 22:36:36 GMT -5
So what say you of fans (like me) who didn't actually even know about KISS musically or listen to the music back then, who still enjoy those albums? Sorry, but there are people out there who enjoyed a fun and catchy pop/rock song like Crazy Nights. If you don't like it, that's fine. But even if I like something, I can still admit when it's shit. There are a ton of bad movies that I like or that are guilty pleasures, but at the end of the day - despite my liking them regardless, I know deep down that they are crap and I can admit that. Sometimes we like crap and I am fine with that. I think you're losing it...... ;D |
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 23, 2011 22:38:03 GMT -5
If one is able to really step back, drop the nostalgic love they have the band and truly be critical - it's fair to say that: Dynasty Unmasked The Elder Animalize Asylum Crazy Nights Hot In The Shade COS PC SB Are among the worst albums ever released by a major hard rock band. If KISS were a new band in the 80's or now, they NEVER would have made it. If the new VH album with Roth is of the quality of SB - they would be laughed out of the music industry. But because it's KISS, then the standards are lowered. The thing is...your opinions of those albums are only that....your opinions. COS is one of their best albums in my opinion. The Elder is good to me also. Dynasty I like too. You see, your opinion isn't the "end all, be all" or whatever the saying is. But can you admit that despite liking those albums, KISS should have probably never made them? |
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 23, 2011 22:41:24 GMT -5
But even if I like something, I can still admit when it's shit. There are a ton of bad movies that I like or that are guilty pleasures, but at the end of the day - despite my liking them regardless, I know deep down that they are crap and I can admit that. Sometimes we like crap and I am fine with that. I think you're losing it...... ;D I am not at all. There are many questionable albums that I like, but I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to tell people what great albums they are, because they are not great albums and I just happen to like it as a guilty pleasure. |
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Post by Justlee on Oct 23, 2011 22:44:51 GMT -5
The thing is...your opinions of those albums are only that....your opinions. COS is one of their best albums in my opinion. The Elder is good to me also. Dynasty I like too. You see, your opinion isn't the "end all, be all" or whatever the saying is. But can you admit that despite liking those albums, KISS should have probably never made them? Who knows?? Maybe their career would've been totally different if they hadn't. But I am glad they did. I enjoy the different sounds of KISS. I am glad they aren't like AC/DC. Some albums are better than others, but that can be said about all bands. |
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 23, 2011 22:52:22 GMT -5
But can you admit that despite liking those albums, KISS should have probably never made them? Who knows?? Maybe their career would've been totally different if they hadn't. But I am glad they did. I enjoy the different sounds of KISS. I am glad they aren't like AC/DC. Some albums are better than others, but that can be said about all bands. That's great and all, but KISS had nowhere to go but up, if they just stuck to being a hard rock band and stopped trying to be something that they are not. |
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Post by dute on Oct 23, 2011 23:03:30 GMT -5
So what say you of fans (like me) who didn't actually even know about KISS musically or listen to the music back then, who still enjoy those albums? Sorry, but there are people out there who enjoyed a fun and catchy pop/rock song like Crazy Nights. If you don't like it, that's fine. But even if I like something, I can still admit when it's shit. There are a ton of bad movies that I like or that are guilty pleasures, but at the end of the day - despite my liking them regardless, I know deep down that they are crap and I can admit that. Sometimes we like crap, but I have no problem admitting that I like something that's crappy as opposed to pretending that it's great. I guess we have a different line of thinking. When I dislike something I just dislike it, period. Dynasty is not a 'so bad it's good' album to me. I think it's a kick ass album. I'll be damned if someone will make me feel bad for loving that album because it's not some musical masterpiece. It delivered (to me) one of the greatest and most memorable tunes ever. Not understanding the caring behind someone else's viewpoint.  KISS fans back in the day did turn their backs on them when Dynasty was released, and continued turning their backs on the music when Unmasked and The Elder followed. I'm a KISS fan. I deal with the mockery already. And at the end of the day, I really don't give a shit what people think. If something brings joy to another person, good for them. |
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 23, 2011 23:08:28 GMT -5
But even if I like something, I can still admit when it's shit. There are a ton of bad movies that I like or that are guilty pleasures, but at the end of the day - despite my liking them regardless, I know deep down that they are crap and I can admit that. Sometimes we like crap, but I have no problem admitting that I like something that's crappy as opposed to pretending that it's great. I guess we have a different line of thinking. When I dislike something I just dislike it, period. Dynasty is not a 'so bad it's good' album to me. I think it's a kick ass album. I'll be damned if someone will make me feel bad for loving that album because it's not some musical masterpiece. It delivered (to me) one of the greatest and most memorable tunes ever. Not understanding the caring behind someone else's viewpoint. KISS fans back in the day did turn their backs on them when Dynasty was released, and continued turning their backs on the music when Unmasked and The Elder followed. I'm a KISS fan. I deal with the mockery already. And at the end of the day, I really don't give a shit what people think. If something brings joy to another person, good for them. It's not about caring per se - it's more about discussion. We disagree when it comes to this, but I don't think that's a bad thing. |
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Post by dute on Oct 23, 2011 23:10:36 GMT -5
Of course not, we're just having a good banter about it.  Like I said though, it just seems this sheep situation is too much of a focus and detracting from actual conversation on KISS. |
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 23, 2011 23:18:00 GMT -5
Of course not, we're just having a good banter about it. Like I said though, it just seems this sheep situation is too much of a focus and detracting from actual conversation on KISS. Well there are countless +1 KISS conversations going on at the FAQ. I prefer to have debate. And yes, this has been a good banter. So thanks.  |
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Post by dute on Oct 23, 2011 23:18:54 GMT -5
Of course not, we're just having a good banter about it. Like I said though, it just seems this sheep situation is too much of a focus and detracting from actual conversation on KISS. Well there are countless +1 KISS conversations going on at the FAQ. I prefer to have debate. And yes, this has been a good banter. So thanks. +1 I mean, yes it has been good.  Regardless I want to get to the good stuff and concerns with who is a sheep or not when having a conversation is irrelevant to me. |
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Post by R&ROVER on Oct 24, 2011 6:50:55 GMT -5
Kiss's standards have never been high. How historically and comparatively "great" are their best albums, really? Is Rock & Roll Over really that good historically speaking and yet many love it? Love Gun? Hotter Than Hell? Was Kiss EVER paving a new musical road? Even Destroyer was Ezrin being Ezrin with Kiss. It didn't so much come from them. Doesn't mean it's not still quite fun, enjoyable, and competent though.
Kiss is HARDLY the worst rock act, musically. I mean, come on. Not even close. The real joke is their appearance and how that really threw a convenient cloak over everything else. Personally I think they're a MUCH more talented and interesting band than AC/DC. Why are they so revered? The style is simple. The playing is simple. And unlike Kiss, the style is mostly repetetive. Self-derivative. Even if the reasons were to cash in, at least Kiss ATTEMPTED some variance in their sound and approach...and often did quite well in terms of quality, if not always success.
No, if anything I think their albums are still vastly underappreciated. They were never revolutionaries or virtuosos, but they wrote solid songs quite often...and then summarily got dismissed because the easier thing to focus on was their merch peddling, their garrish (ridiculous?) appearance. If ANYTHING is underappreciated about Kiss it's that their records were much better than they were often given credit for being, even if historically speaking they weren't really treading much new ground.
Ace Frehley may not have ever been a stellar guitarist in the technical sense, but he sure wrote a lot of hummable solos. Jeff Beck is an INFINITELY better player and INFINITELY more dynamic writer and musician and hardly a person on the planet would argue this who knows guitar...and yet I can't remember a single lick of his. So it that better?
I don't think that's apologist speak either. I'm in a bit of a Kiss low (tho' excited for an impending record) and have much to criticize. But when I spin their records I think of all the songs that might've been big that weren't...that were very GOOD tunes. Kiss had more very GOOD tunes than many bands much more popular and worshipped than they are TO THIS DAY.
I think the bias here aren't the Kiss sheep, but really a disgruntled fan who doesn't like what they're doing. That's just as likely, perhaps...and arguably no better.
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Post by Justlee on Oct 24, 2011 9:45:22 GMT -5
Rover....I couldn't agree more. Especially about the disgruntled fan. Spot on post.....+1.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 11:37:42 GMT -5
excellent posts from rover and dute.
I believe it is as simple as people like what they like.
Some people are butt hurt and obsessed with KISS (and their fans).
Kiss never forced any one to buy their albums, you either enjoy it or you don't.
In the same way that fans who have moved on and can not let go, those are the sheep. Those poor little babies. Sitting in a shitty diaper and won't get up and start fresh.
I find the obsession to be very strange.
Hell even on this site, people claim to hate the FAQ or not be a fan of some policies, but this entire board seems to be aimed at the FAQ. It really seems like it will always be in the shadow of it.
We need a FAQ section here, at least that would be honest.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 12:12:44 GMT -5
Kiss's standards have never been high. How historically and comparatively "great" are their best albums, really? Is Rock & Roll Over really that good historically speaking and yet many love it? Love Gun? Hotter Than Hell? Was Kiss EVER paving a new musical road? Even Destroyer was Ezrin being Ezrin with Kiss. It didn't so much come from them. Doesn't mean it's not still quite fun, enjoyable, and competent though. Kiss is HARDLY the worst rock act, musically. I mean, come on. Not even close. The real joke is their appearance and how that really threw a convenient cloak over everything else. Personally I think they're a MUCH more talented and interesting band than AC/DC. Why are they so revered? The style is simple. The playing is simple. And unlike Kiss, the style is mostly repetetive. Self-derivative. Even if the reasons were to cash in, at least Kiss ATTEMPTED some variance in their sound and approach...and often did quite well in terms of quality, if not always success. No, if anything I think their albums are still vastly underappreciated. They were never revolutionaries or virtuosos, but they wrote solid songs quite often...and then summarily got dismissed because the easier thing to focus on was their merch peddling, their garrish (ridiculous?) appearance. If ANYTHING is underappreciated about Kiss it's that their records were much better than they were often given credit for being, even if historically speaking they weren't really treading much new ground. Ace Frehley may not have ever been a stellar guitarist in the technical sense, but he sure wrote a lot of hummable solos. Jeff Beck is an INFINITELY better player and INFINITELY more dynamic writer and musician and hardly a person on the planet would argue this who knows guitar...and yet I can't remember a single lick of his. So it that better? I don't think that's apologist speak either. I'm in a bit of a Kiss low (tho' excited for an impending record) and have much to criticize. But when I spin their records I think of all the songs that might've been big that weren't...that were very GOOD tunes. Kiss had more very GOOD tunes than many bands much more popular and worshipped than they are TO THIS DAY. I think the bias here aren't the Kiss sheep, but really a disgruntled fan who doesn't like what they're doing. That's just as likely, perhaps...and arguably no better. Just to clarify, I am no disgruntled fan. I would love nothing more than to be blown away by KISS like I used to be. In fact, there was a time when I would defend anything KISS. This isn't about Tommy and Eric wearing the makeup or originals vs. new members. It's about KISS continuing to make horrible music and not pushing themselves to their absolute musical limit. It's more disappointment over anything else and I just can't pretend anymore that everything that KISS does is awesome. I have woken up from my slumber, but most people haven't. You know full well that sheep exist and in extremely large numbers. I can't believe how bad PC and SB were and I have a hard time supporting a band that thinks these albums are great. Add those albums to most of the 80's stuff and it makes me embarrassed FOR them - especially when I know that if they dropped their ego's and worked much harder than they did, we could have gotten much better KISS albums in the late 70's and much of the 80's - instead of the complete mediocrity that we did get. It's like being the parent of a child that you know is much smarter and is able to make much more of a effort than they do, but they just do the absolute bare minimum just so they can get a passing grade. That's KISS. Other bands take album making seriously - KISS throw something together and call it an album. Or release demo's and call that an album as per HITS. Jeff Beck vs Ace isn't really a fair comparison - because Jeff isn't in a band and he is more eclectic. But pick a guitarist in a band and plently blow away Ace and have more memorable guitar solo's. I could come up with a list of over 200 guitarists in bands that surpass Ace in playing ability, style and with catchy memorable solo's. But having said that, I love Ace and I wish he was in KISS for what he brings to the band. I never said KISS was the worst band musically - but certainly KISS fans from the 70's until now have taken a lot of shit from other people, the media, critics and everyone in between who have stated that KISS sucks and they are one of the worst MAJOR bands musically speaking. KISS sucks should have it's own dictionary definition, since it's been used countless time by everyone but KISS fans. Other bands don't nearly get that much hatred from people that don't like them. You also don't get people saying things like KISS are kiddie band that you listen to at first before you graduate to real rock and roll like they have said about KISS. |
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 12:24:45 GMT -5
excellent posts from rover and dute. I believe it is as simple as people like what they like. Some people are butt hurt and obsessed with KISS (and their fans). Kiss never forced any one to buy their albums, you either enjoy it or you don't. In the same way that fans who have moved on and can not let go, those are the sheep. Those poor little babies. Sitting in a shitty diaper and won't get up and start fresh. I find the obsession to be very strange. Hell even on this site, people claim to hate the FAQ or not be a fan of some policies, but this entire board seems to be aimed at the FAQ. It really seems like it will always be in the shadow of it. We need a FAQ section here, at least that would be honest. I don't think because people choose to comment on a band that they had a lot invested in for decades makes them butthurt. I am certainly not butthurt, but I am about debate and real critical discussion as opposed to the masterbutory discussion that generally goes on at the FAQ and your Podkisst. This board isn't aimed at the FAQ at all. If you never went into Free Rein, you would see that FAQ is barely mentioned elsewhere. But like I said before, since we are all one big happy family in terms of the same posters - people will always talk about the FAQ on some level. The same thing happens at every other forum on the planet that has split off from a previous forum, so this is nothing new. |
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 12:41:06 GMT -5
Just sounds like when the chemistry of the original four was gone, you were gone as a fan as well. I kind of agree, though not as strongly. For me nothing they did ever came close to what the originals created though I do love a lot of the later albums (well Dynasty through LIU), after 1983 it became harder and harder to find stuff to latch onto, Kiss went in one direction and I went in another. There's no right or wrong (well if someone thinks HITS is a good album they're fucking wrong.) It is what it is. Not true - I love Creatures, LIU and Revenge. But in those instances, they actually pushed themselves. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 12:43:57 GMT -5
excellent posts from rover and dute. I believe it is as simple as people like what they like. Some people are butt hurt and obsessed with KISS (and their fans). Kiss never forced any one to buy their albums, you either enjoy it or you don't. In the same way that fans who have moved on and can not let go, those are the sheep. Those poor little babies. Sitting in a shitty diaper and won't get up and start fresh. I find the obsession to be very strange. Hell even on this site, people claim to hate the FAQ or not be a fan of some policies, but this entire board seems to be aimed at the FAQ. It really seems like it will always be in the shadow of it. We need a FAQ section here, at least that would be honest. I don't think because people choose to comment on a band that they had a lot invested in for decades makes them butthurt. I am certainly not butthurt, but I am about debate and real critical discussion as opposed to the masterbutory discussion that generally goes on at the FAQ and your Podkisst. This board isn't aimed at the FAQ at all. If you never went into Free Rein, you would see that FAQ is barely mentioned elsewhere. But like I said before, since we are all one big happy family in terms of the same posters - people will always talk about the FAQ on some level. The same thing happens at every other forum on the planet that has split off from a previous forum, so this is nothing new. There is no "masturbatory" discussion on the PodKISSt, what it is, is people talking about the good times. We also say what we don't like. Perhaps not enough bitching for you. You like what you like. |
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Post by R&ROVER on Oct 24, 2011 12:47:16 GMT -5
You said somewhere along the line that they're a joke in the industry, musically speaking (or some such thing....paraphrasing). Please correct me if I misunderstood. I know that underneath your current disdain that you're still a fan of their music. I just hardly think they're the worst thing out there and I'm not so sure the industry thinks so either...but I'm also speculating there. If anything, they're BETTER than they have the reputation for being. The one area where they get the obligatory slagging is the one area that's not so silly: their ability to write solid and catchy rock tunes. That's not to imply they don't still pen the occasional dud because they do, but they're better than they're given credit for, musically.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 12:47:38 GMT -5
Just sounds like when the chemistry of the original four was gone, you were gone as a fan as well. I kind of agree, though not as strongly. For me nothing they did ever came close to what the originals created though I do love a lot of the later albums (well Dynasty through LIU), after 1983 it became harder and harder to find stuff to latch onto, Kiss went in one direction and I went in another. There's no right or wrong (well if someone thinks HITS is a good album they're fucking wrong.) It is what it is. I only like a few things on HITS. "Forever" is a great track. I don't feel that KISS (or any band) can be faulted for not keeping that Lightning in a bottle, I can't really think of any band that could do that, other than the Beatles, but look at how much they changed, but the quality was always there with them (for the most part) |
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 12:51:09 GMT -5
I don't think because people choose to comment on a band that they had a lot invested in for decades makes them butthurt. I am certainly not butthurt, but I am about debate and real critical discussion as opposed to the masterbutory discussion that generally goes on at the FAQ and your Podkisst. This board isn't aimed at the FAQ at all. If you never went into Free Rein, you would see that FAQ is barely mentioned elsewhere. But like I said before, since we are all one big happy family in terms of the same posters - people will always talk about the FAQ on some level. The same thing happens at every other forum on the planet that has split off from a previous forum, so this is nothing new. There is no "masturbatory" discussion on the PodKISSt, what it is, is people talking about the good times. We also say what we don't like. Perhaps not enough bitching for you. You like what you like. I disagree about it not being masturbatory from what I have heard and I am not talking about bitching about the band - I am talking about having real debate and critical discussion. How about you do an entire episode of where you guys think KISS went wrong or discuss what you think are the bad albums or bad KISS songs. It would be an entertaining change of pace I think. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 12:55:07 GMT -5
There is no "masturbatory" discussion on the PodKISSt, what it is, is people talking about the good times. We also say what we don't like. Perhaps not enough bitching for you. You like what you like. I disagree about it not being masturbatory from what I have heard and I am not talking about bitching about the band - I am talking about having real debate and critical discussion. How about you do an entire episode of where you guys think KISS went wrong or discuss what you think are the bad albums or bad KISS songs. It would be an entertaining change of pace I think. You have missed a bunch then. Many times we disagree on the show, but then again, it is not "Politically Correct". I don't understand why people are critical of people liking what they like. It really is as simple as that. |
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 12:57:18 GMT -5
You said somewhere along the line that they're a joke in the industry, musically speaking (or some such thing....paraphrasing). Please correct me if I misunderstood. I know that underneath your current disdain that you're still a fan of their music. I just hardly think they're the worst thing out there and I'm not so sure the industry thinks so either...but I'm also speculating there. If anything, they're BETTER than they have the reputation for being. The one area where they get the obligatory slagging is the one area that's not so silly: their ability to write solid and catchy rock tunes. That's not to imply they don't still pen the occasional dud because they do, but they're better than they're given credit for, musically. I think that KISS HAS been considered the joke of the industry musically speaking in their career, but not overall. Every other band I listen to makes albums that blow away what KISS is doing has done. Is it because they are better bands? Not necessarily. It's because those bands take album making seriously. KISS don't. That's the difference for me. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 12:58:38 GMT -5
I think that KISS HAS been considered the joke of the industry musically speaking in their career. I remember the 70's as well. KISS has always been considered a joke. |
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 12:58:43 GMT -5
I disagree about it not being masturbatory from what I have heard and I am not talking about bitching about the band - I am talking about having real debate and critical discussion. How about you do an entire episode of where you guys think KISS went wrong or discuss what you think are the bad albums or bad KISS songs. It would be an entertaining change of pace I think. You have missed a bunch then. Many times we disagree on the show, but then again, it is not "Politically Correct". I don't understand why people are critical of people liking what they like. It really is as simple as that. Because it's more interesting and entertaining over everyone circle jerking each other over how great something is. |
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Post by R&ROVER on Oct 24, 2011 12:59:32 GMT -5
The sheep has its hater counterpart. Hey Man has duly pointed out that he doesn't consider himself that and I'll take his word, but there is the anti-sheep as well and I'm not sure that's any better.
I refuse to judge Kiss based purely on my worst thoughts of them right now. Like with all phases, each one has its pluses and minuses...to varying degrees. That I not only didn't hate but rather really enjoyed Sonic Boom is my biggest positive about this lineup, aside from their relative tightness of playing. To me this is just another one of many Kiss lineups with the added aggravation of the "playing other roles" aspect, which I don't enjoy.
Sonic Boom is far better to me than MOST of their 80s output, which I think is almost unfairly praised. Kulick didn't even start to become good until 90s Kiss (IMO) and Carr remains a sentimental and personal favorite, even though as a player I think he was overrated and pretty much a one-note drummer: power only.
Nothing compares to the magic of Kiss in their prime to me, but I'm long past mourning it. It's been a revolving door of "others" for nearly 32 years now. I'm pretty used to it.
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Post by Hey Man on Oct 24, 2011 13:06:57 GMT -5
Every other band I listen to makes albums that blow away what KISS is doing has done. Is it because they are better bands? Not necessarily. It's because those bands take album making seriously. KISS don't. That's the difference for me. What bands that have been around 35+ years are still making good albums? Very short list indeed. KISS were making bad albums long before 35 years rolled around. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 13:12:48 GMT -5
What bands that have been around 35+ years are still making good albums? Very short list indeed. KISS were making bad albums long before 35 years rolled around. from day one according to some. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2011 13:14:28 GMT -5
You have missed a bunch then. Many times we disagree on the show, but then again, it is not "Politically Correct". I don't understand why people are critical of people liking what they like. It really is as simple as that. Because it's more interesting and entertaining over everyone circle jerking each other over how great something is. I have enjoyed most of what KISS have done. even at their worst, they still entertained me. It is an interesting soap opera. |
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